Reading a lot about scopes but.........

[mzdadoc]

I've been searching and reading many threads about rifle scopes and have watched many training videos on YouTube with Larry Potterfield among others.
I'm understanding MOA and all the parts of a scope and zeroing. Here's the part that I missed that I hope someone can explain easily.
After achieving your zero at either 100 or 200 yards you can then adjust to compensate for windage and bullet drop to greater distances of lets say 600 + yards. The shooter in the video Ryan Cleckner with the National Sports Shooting Foundation (NSSF) then shot at a target and hit center mass perfectly. The part I don't understand is his crosshairs were over and up totally off the target in essence compensating for windage and drop. Why? What the purpose of making adjustments to your scope at those distances then? My uninformed logic tells me I should have my cross hairs right where I want the bullet to go since that's where I adjusted it too already. What am I missing?

Thanks in advance!

[870TC]

Sometimes people that sell "things" don't actually use them or know how to use them.

[Uffdaphil]

I think the video shooter is demonstrating "hold off." What the vert/horizontal markings on the reticle are for. Helpful for quick multiple shots at differing ranges. Dialing in each shot would take a lot longer.

[UnaStamus]

After achieving your zero at either 100 or 200 yards you can then adjust to compensate for windage and bullet drop to greater distances of lets say 600 + yards. The shooter in the video Ryan Cleckner with the National Sports Shooting Foundation (NSSF) then shot at a target and hit center mass perfectly. The part I don't understand is his crosshairs were over and up totally off the target in essence compensating for windage and drop. Why? What the purpose of making adjustments to your scope at those distances then? My uninformed logic tells me I should have my cross hairs right where I want the bullet to go since that's where I adjusted it too already. What am I missing?

He wasn't aiming high and right. That was video through a different scope view. Notice how the reticle didn't move at all from any recoil? It was there because the camera likely didn't have enough magnification to show the target that far out. You can also follow the vapor trail of the bullet from low right to high left, which indicates that the scope view is offset above and the left of the shooter.

FWIW, stick to 100yds zero. It's the least confusing and the most efficient. There are two instances where zeroing at longer ranges would be appropriate. The first is for ELR (extreme long range) where you need a longer zero to achieve longer impacts. The second is for single-purpose hunting where you knew that your shots would likely be at 200yds or 300yds because that's where the game trail is from your stand or blind, etc. In this second hunting type aspect, we're talking about a scope that likely does not have externally adjustable turrets.

If the rifle is for hunting, that's one matter. If the rifle is for target/precision tactical long range, I would highly recommend that you look at mils as opposed to MOA. Having an index matched system with a MOA turret and MOA reticle (MOA/MOA) or milrad turret with milrad reticle (mil/mil) is ideal because it makes corrections easier and more intuitive. The traditional method of MOA turret/mil reticle is useable, but it's antiquated and is being phased out. The USMC has completely phased out the MOA/MIL for a MIL/MIL setup, and the US Army is about 60-75% converted to MIL/MIL. In tactical precision long range competition, everyone is running matched index MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. Mils are easier to work with due to greater availability of turrets and accessory options like spotting scopes with matching reticle subtensions. MOA is growing in availability though. At this point, there are plenty of quality scopes on the market that offer mil/mil capability in all price ranges.

[crbutler]

If what Unastamus said didn't make sense...

There are scopes with the adjustments made by removing the cover cap and then making the adjustment. These are typically hunting scopes. The changes are every bit as precise in many cases, but you have to do some effort to get at them. The idea is that once you have the gun zeroed you don't want to make changes. The controls are covered so that they don't get bumped and moved without your knowing it. Lots of folks set up their hunting gun to hit an inch or two high at 100 so that you have a maximum point blank range out to 300+ yards and if you hold on target out to that distance, the bullet will hit within a couple inches and thus is a dead animal without having to mess with ranging or hold over. Since most folks don't/can't find game at over 300 yards, in essence, if you see it, you can hit it.

There are also scopes with "target" knobs so that you can change them on the fly. Usually these are calibrated to a certain number of mils or MOA per click. You can adjust them as you are shooting to take allowances for conditions. This is the sort of thing where you see someone saying range is X, up X clicks (or X mils or MOA or whatever and the shooter grabs the knob, spins it and then shoots.)

The other part is reticles.

Some scopes just have a simple crosshairs.

Some have a bullet drop compensator so that if the target is at X you hold it to the corresponding mark and you are shooting at the right range.

Some have a range finding reticle (if the target fills the space, its at X distance)

Some combine the bullet drop and the range finding (some hunting type scopes especially)

What he's talking about are the scopes that combine ranging and bullet/windage estimation as they are marked as hash marks/ dots every 1-2 milirads or MOA. Its the most versatile way to do things, but requires some user knowledge to make it work. What he's saying is don't get a scope where the reticle is set up as milirads and the knobs are set up as MOA, (or vice versa, although I have never seen that set up myself) as then you need to do an additional calculation to do what you want.

If you are new to scopes, I would suggest you don't overthink it and get something simple to start with and then buy something bigger/more complex as you need it.

[arizona98tj]

Here you go....a pic of the scope on my .308 bolt gun. It is a Vortex Viper PST optic. You can see the external turrets for easy adjustment of elevation and windation. Each of those white marks will move the point of impact .1 mil.....or .36".....at 100 yds. My optic also has mil marks on the reticle, so I can hold higher or adjust for wind by changing my point of aim (POA). I prefer to dial in my windage and elevation using the turrets. Sometimes you don't have time to do that and so the reticle can be used to make the same adjustment, albeit it may not be quite as accurate using hold-offs. With this optic mounted on my .308 rifle, with a 100 yd zero, I can dial in enough elevation correction to compensate for bullet drop out to 1000+ yds.

[UnaStamus]

^ is that the 4-16x50?

[mzdadoc]

Thank you very much all of you!!!! It's all really fascinating!!! Actually AZ98tj that's the scope the guys at Bills were recommending to me.

[UnaStamus]

Vortex Viper PST is a good scope. They have both SFP and FFP versions.

SFP vs FFP:



A couple questions for you:

1. What do you want the scope for?
2. What type of rifle and caliber are you shooting?
3. How far will you be shooting?
4. What is your max budget?



Now, if you decide to buy a scope any time soon, I would recommend that you buy online. Numerous sites online have significantly better pricing than any retail place here in MN. Most scope companies have MAP (minimum advertised pricing), which most online places sell them for. Most local retail places charge more than MAP, plus you add on tax.

[crbutler]

What you want it for and your budget make a big difference. Hunting? I would pass on the target knobs. Varminting or long range? Get the target knobs. Dangerous game hunting? (bears/africa) Get the simplest crosshairs you can, keep a low magnification (under 2X at low end) and if you can afford it get an illuminated reticle.

I have a Nightforce 8-32 Mil set up on a .308 AR. Good glass, reproducible settings. Probably more scope than I need on a .308. The high end magnification sometimes has issues with mirage, but you can turn it down. Make sure the scope can be adjusted for parallax.

I also looked at Schmidt and Bender- they were out of stock, so I bypassed them. I don't regret that.

I use Swarovski on my hunting guns. They are pretty expensive, but in my mind its worth it. Swarovski really doesn't cater to the tactical crowd, they are more aimed at the hunting market.

The Vortex I found in a couple places looks like @$650 (depends on model), so its easily a quarter the price of the high end stuff and IMO, probably 80-90% as good, some of the guys I have shot with use them, and beat me more often than not. (it's the indian, not the arrow...)

If you are not shooting over 600 yards, or dealing with intense cartridges (read anything magnum), its a great place to start.

Also, Nightforce does have a pretty good write up on tactical scope and the differences on their web site, even if you plan on getting something else.

[mzdadoc]

Vortex Viper PST is a good scope. They have both SFP and FFP versions.

SFP vs FFP:



A couple questions for you:

1. What do you want the scope for?
2. What type of rifle and caliber are you shooting?
3. How far will you be shooting?
4. What is your max budget?



Now, if you decide to buy a scope any time soon, I would recommend that you buy online. Numerous sites online have significantly better pricing than any retail place here in MN. Most scope companies have MAP (minimum advertised pricing), which most online places sell them for. Most local retail places charge more than MAP, plus you add on tax.

Believe it or not I want to shoot with my wife.... I've always had guns and I'm not against hunting/fishing for food. Meaning I won't kill for a mount.
I truly want to get into long range shooting and my wife really likes the idea of us doing it together taking turns pulling the trigger/behind the spotting scope. My goal is 600 yards plus.
The rifle I'm looking at is the Remington 700 in 308 which is in my price range. Budget wise it's what momma allows but it's looking like the $700 rifle and $700 scope plus insidentals.

[mzdadoc]

Crbutler can you explain parallax?

[crbutler]

In essence, its the optical error between the reticle and the target image. The cross hairs seem to float around and cause inaccuracy.

Wiki describes it better than I-

In optical sights parallax refers to the apparent movement of the reticle in relationship to the target when the user moves his/her head laterally behind the sight (up/down or left/right),[27] i.e. it is an error where the reticle does not stay aligned with the sight's own optical axis.

In optical instruments such as telescopes, microscopes, or in telescopic sights used on small arms and theodolites, the error occurs when the optics are not precisely focused: the reticle will appear to move with respect to the object focused on if one moves one's head sideways in front of the eyepiece. Some firearm telescopic sights are equipped with a parallax compensation mechanism which basically consists of a movable optical element that enables the optical system to project the picture of objects at varying distances and the reticle crosshairs pictures together in exactly the same optical plane. Telescopic sights may have no parallax compensation because they can perform very acceptably without refinement for parallax with the sight being permanently adjusted for the distance that best suits their intended usage. Typical standard factory parallax adjustment distances for hunting telescopic sights are 100 yd or 100 m to make them suited for hunting shots that rarely exceed 300 yd/m. Some target and military style telescopic sights without parallax compensation may be adjusted to be parallax free at ranges up to 300 yd/m to make them better suited for aiming at longer ranges.[citation needed] Scopes for rimfires, shotguns, and muzzleloaders will have shorter parallax settings, commonly 50 yd/m[citation needed] for rimfire scopes and 100 yd/m[citation needed] for shotguns and muzzleloaders. Scopes for airguns are very often found with adjustable parallax, usually in the form of an adjustable objective, or AO. These may adjust down as far as 3 yards (2.74 m

).

Most scopes designed for long range shooting (like the Viper) have an adjustment for it based on the range. On tactical style scopes its a knob on the left side usually. On more hunting or target scopes, you usually twist the bell of the scope to do this. In essence, you are fine tuning the scope for the distance you are shooting at. Its important because most of us don't have EXACTLY the same cheek weld for every shot.

[xd ED]

What you want it for and your budget make a big difference. Hunting? I would pass on the target knobs. Varminting or long range? Get the target knobs. Dangerous game hunting? (bears/africa) Get the simplest crosshairs you can, keep a low magnification (under 2X at low end) and if you can afford it get an illuminated reticle.

I have a Nightforce 8-32 Mil set up on a .308 AR. Good glass, reproducible settings. Probably more scope than I need on a .308. The high end magnification sometimes has issues with mirage, but you can turn it down. Make sure the scope can be adjusted for parallax.

I also looked at Schmidt and Bender- they were out of stock, so I bypassed them. I don't regret that.

I use Swarovski on my hunting guns. They are pretty expensive, but in my mind its worth it. Swarovski really doesn't cater to the tactical crowd, they are more aimed at the hunting market.

The Vortex I found in a couple places looks like @$650 (depends on model), so its easily a quarter the price of the high end stuff and IMO, probably 80-90% as good, some of the guys I have shot with use them, and beat me more often than not. (it's the indian, not the arrow...)

If you are not shooting over 600 yards, or dealing with intense cartridges (read anything magnum), its a great place to start.

Also, Nightforce does have a pretty good write up on tactical scope and the differences on their web site, even if you plan on getting something else.

I'm putting together a rifle with similar intentions as the OP- longer range target shooting; going with a different rifle- CZ 550 Hbar in .308. I'm curious if you have any experience or opinions regarding Sightron scopes. I'm pondering one of the SIII 8-32 x56 models. Like many things, they get good internet reviews, and I'm not sure I want to make the jump into something like Nightforce at this time.
Thanks,
ED

[UnaStamus]

Parallax is typically only visible at 12x or higher magnification. You typically won't see parallax adjustment on scopes that top out at 9x or 10x because the magnification is not high enough for parallax to be present at closer ranges, or problematic at extended ranges.

With a budget of $700, here's what I'd recommend for scopes:

1. Weaver Tactical 3-15x50 EMDR FFP mil/mil - $765 (worth the extra money)
2. SWFA SS 3-15x42 FFP mil/mil - $699
3. Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 SFP mil/mil - $699