Battle belts and holsters

[Scratch]

I’m hoping to get some advice on belts. Not serpentine belts, vacuum belts, or even standard gun belts, but something more along the lines of battle belts, or 3 gun belts.
This is what I want to accomplish… I think…
Sorry in advance for the long post.

I want to be able to… and I hate this term…”run and gun” on my property. I have a small course set up right now, running down a hill, ending up at my pistol range, engaging about 18 targets. Some at short distances like 7 yards using a pistol, and some at distances up to 100 yards with a rifle. The pistol are steel targets, the rifle are paper targets. This course takes a fat, overweight, out of shape, uncoordinated guy like me who falls a lot, about 3 minutes to complete right now. And when I say “right now” I mean “in the summer” because I don’t do much besides watch TV, and stare blankly at the wall, in the winter.

I’ve ran this course using my G17 and my AR, and it’s very fun. It also seems to be very good exercise going up and down that hill, which is another reason I want to do it. The problem is I don’t have a real good way to hold spare mags. I have a few IWB holsters, and a paddle Serpa, for that pistol, along with a dual mag pouch for the pistol mags, but would like to step it up a notch and go with some sort of belt system.

Most of the shooting I do lately is pistol, and would fall under the IDPA style of training, but I told myself I was going to start doing more training this coming summer with the rifle so I guess that would be considered multigun. Now I’m not much of a shotgun lover, but recently acquired a lightly modded Benelli M2, so I’m sure there will be some shotgun stuff added to the course as well. I’m not so concerned about shell carriers yet though.
If I do end up loving the shotgun part of 3 gun style shooting, I’ll end up buying a dedicated 3 gun belt setup with inner and outer belts, shell carriers, etc…
For now… lets say I don’t have a shotgun.

Basically my question is should I get a battle belt or a 3 gun style belt system?

I know that most of the 3 gun belts have an inner belt that loops through your pant belt loops, with Velcro on the outside. Then you attach, by Velcro, the outer belt with all your gear on it, to that. I also realize one advantage of the 3 gun belt is that you can place items directly in front where a belt buckle would go which I like a lot. I also like the fact that the 3 gun belts have the inner belt which already holds up your pants… with a battle belt… You’d need to have another belt to do that right? Since I like to show at least 4 inches of my Tommy Hilfiger boxers at all times like all the cool kids do… I may have a problem there though…

Some advantages of the battle belt that I see are:
1. Wanna go shoot? Grab the belt, one clip and it’s on… boom you’re ready.
2. You don’t have to thread the inner belt on your regular pants, and then attach the outer belt. This can be advantageous for just a quick hour of shooting, not to mention the emergency or SHTF type scenarios.

Speaking of SHTF… I may also want to get some sort of chest rig for that. I’m not a Doomsday Prepper or anything, but:
I like to be prepared…
I secretly enjoy the “mall commando” aspect of it…
and I have a little extra funding right now so I might as well go full out right?

I’ve tried running my course with my IWB holster and it was just no fun doing transitions with an IWB holster and a slung rifle. I’m scared of my Serpa holster, but I do have one of those cheaper tactical vests that I got as a gift. The ones you see at Cheaper than Dirt for like 60 bucks… It has lots of mag pouches, a belt, and a universal thigh holster, but I don’t like how low the holster is, and there’s no retention other than the strap which is a pain to use while moving. I tried the vest once, but I probably won’t be using it again.
It looks cool though…

Also the mag pouches on the vest are difficult to get to. They have Velcro flaps which are slow to access and “tactically” loud which sucks when I’m on a silent but deadly mission to get to the Oreo cookies without my kids noticing. So I’m looking for some type of system that is easy and fast, to access spare mags for my rifle and pistol.

I like the idea of the battle belt because:
1. It’s easy to grab and put on, when I go to the range.
2. Quick to put on if I have 15 minutes to do some reload drills or something down stairs.
3. Will fashion coordinate with a future chest rig.
4. I can attach SHTF stuff like knives, med kits, lollipops, etc..
5. I like to say the phrase “Battle Belt”

But I like the 3 gun belt because:
1. I feel that if I ever do compete in an actual 3 gun match, I think that the 2 belt system is more secure.
2. It will hold my pants up better without the need for another belt.
3. I can put things exactly where I need them, like condoms, right above my wee wee.

I’m assuming I could use a battle belt for 3 gun competitions, and if I really get into it, then I could get a dedicated 3 gun belt system. But do I have to wear a separate belt underneath just to keep my pants up?

Then there’s the holster thing I’m concerned with. I want to get a new OWB holster for this, since I fear for my life whenever I look at the Serpa, but not sure what to go with. Should I go with a standard “friction retention” Kydex holster like I normally see on battle belts, or something like a Safariland or Blade-Tech, thumb break retention style holsters? I don’t want my gun falling out, but I’m not sure If I need to go with a level 2 type retention or anything since the only thing I’m really at war with is mosquito’s. Of course I know that if I ever did compete, and my gun goes AWOL… I’m DQ’d, which will put me SOL and I will be PO’d, but that’s enough of that BS.

So…
Should I go with a battle belt or a 3 gun belt?
Should I get an all kydex friction retention holster or a thumb break style holster?
Or… should I sell all my guns so I don’t have to worry about this and take up knitting?

[mr.paul]

Don't have any advice for you. Just wanted to say I enjoyed the chuckles I got from your humor.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

[Mn01r6]

I am a 3gunner and I had to google what a battle belt is, so I think you know where I would land...CR Speed or Safariland ELS if you have the cash (keep in mind all the attachments are more $$$ too)

I really like my Safariland ALS holster. Very easy to draw, very easy to retain. I don't like the idea of running around anywhere with a gun in a friction holster, even if it is all by myself.

[LumberZach]

SOE gear battle belt. Taco pouches everywhere. Get a better holster. Kydex. Raven concealment is good, but I havnt found many that are bad. When you get more into shotgun, I think chest mounted is the way to go for using in conjunction with s belt system.

[Scratch]

Ok.... One vote for a 3 gun belt, and one for a battle belt....

One vote for for an ALS holster, one for a friction retention holster...




And one vote that finds me humorous.





I can see where this is going.

[andrewP]

Two votes that find you humorous.

[jshuberg]

http://www.originalsoegear.com/products ... d-war-belt
http://www.blackhawk.com/Products/Bags- ... -Belt.aspx
http://www.safariland.com/paddle/model- ... ml#start=1
http://www.safariland.com/quick-attachm ... ml#start=1
http://www.highspeedgear.com/taco-pouches.html
http://www.highspeedgear.com/hsgi/doubl ... 1DD00.html

SOE is a pretty good battle belt. I had a Condor one before it, and the SOE is significantly better. The problem is that it needs to be made *really* strong. Without some kind of backing support (that would be really uncomfortable) the MOLLE webbing on a battle belt gets torqued and pulled a lot. SOE seems to work pretty well at that. Blackhawk makes a battle belt as well, but I've never seen one in person but I assume it's inline with their other gear and of good quality. The SOE belt comes in several more colors than blackhawk. Get a good quality riggers belt for underneath it. The Blackhawk belt is great, but I'm sure there are others as well. I would not use a competition belt, it's designed for an entirely different scenario.

These days I only have 3 different holsters I use. Raven concealment holsters, Safariland ALS holsters (for retention), and Blade Tech for my X5's (because Raven doesn't make holsters for the X5). They are all great for what they do, but agree that on a battle belt you are going to want retention. The ALS 6378 holster is fantastic. With a little practice you can draw it just as quickly as a non-retention holster. It's really slick. Order the MOLLE locking fork for easy attachment and removal from your MOLLE on your belt.

As far as pouches go, I really like the TACO pouches for mags. Mags are held in place by a bungee, but are really easy to remove. You can tune the retention pressure by tightening up the bungee at the bottom, but they do make a sound when removing the mags. You can loop the bungee over the top for better retention as well. I really like the double decker pouches they make, with a pistol mag on the front of an AR mag to conserve space.

I'd also recommend getting a dump pouch of some kind as well. If you're putting this together for a SHTF scenario, you're going to want to retain your mags. A small med kit, utility pack for misc stuff, a light pouch, etc are also good things to setup. I don't call the setup a battle belt, I call it my go belt. Same way I have a go bag if something happens and I need to GTFO quickly. The go belt just holds the bare essentials that I would want to keep with me if bad things were happening.

Anyways, that's my input.

[Scratch]

I'm pretty sure if I go with a battle belt, I'm going with the HSGI battle belt with a 1.75" Cobra belt underneath. I'll probably go with their Taco pouches as well since I do like them. As far as a holster, I really like the G-Code holsters and their versatile attachment points. If I go with a something more than friction retention, I'll go with their SOC holster.

As far as 3 gun stuff, I can't decide of the CR stuff or the Blade Tech stuff.



Still trying to decide which route to go with. I want to go with the more tactical, and better for SHTF stuff, of the battle belt.

For those 3 gunners out there, do you see people using battle belts during comps?

[Hmac]

I have two belts that I use. One is a 5.11 Brokos belt and the other is a Blade-Tech version of the CR Speedbelt. I just use the Brokos belt for rifle stuff, so it has only a couple of pistol magazines as well as some rifle magazines, a dump pouch, and a pistol holster platform. The BladeTech is just for pistols, although I could also mount rifle mags or shotgun shell carriers, depending on what's being shot at a particular 3-gun. My pistol holsters are all BladeTech OWBs mounted on BladeTech TMMS plates, so I can just unsnap the holster from one belt and snap it onto the other.

I opted for the 5.11 version of the Brokos belt after finding the VTAC version to be unsatisfactory. Not to mention unnecessarily expensive.

[shooter115]

Trouble is you're talking about 2 different systems that don't really intersect well. I'm an avid 3-gun and action pistol shooter that runs the pretty typical CR Speed belt. Great for competition......not so great in a SHTF scenario. So you need to decide what you really want to train for. The skills cross over, but not so much the gear.

That's why I have 2 set-ups. One I use frequently and spent quite a bit of money on, which is my 3-gun rig and one I hope I never use, but is rugged, should get the job done if I ever need it and was relatively cheap. For that route I just went with surplus USGI molle vest and accessories. It works well and I can leave it in the closet with loaded mags in the unlikely event that I'll ever use it in a real life situation. Plus it will hold a lot more lollipops than a battle belt. I have had the chance to do some training with our regional SWAT department, and for any of the training and qualifications they have done it works well. For the qualifications I can pretty easily spank all but a couple, but those guys are also competitive action shooters. Who woulda thought being a 3-gunner would also make you a better SWAT operator.......huh.

I also use a SERPA both for three gun and for whatever may come. Not sure where the fear comes from. You would have to succumb to some really bad tactics or habits to make it dangerous in the least. I've seen a few pistols come flying out of holsters without positive retention at matches and wouldn't think of using one in 3-gun or if SHTF. A loose pistol in a 3-gun match will get you DQ'd, real life could mean a lost pistol or far worse. Retention options also include the Blade Tec WRS system, Safariland ALS or SLS and G-Code XST. I'd like to try the G-Code, but honestly after using the SERPA in competition for the last 3 years, I really see no reason to change......if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'll even include a video of me using my SERPA un-holstering, holstering, jumping through a window and once again un-holstering on the clock, without shooting myself in the leg. Now this isn't your typical 3-gun match like you would currently shoot here in MN. This was from Task Force Dagger last spring. The match director here would be the one and only Andy Horner, who is known for putting on pretty extreme matches.
Okay......I can't get the stupid video to embed. So here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnJ76NDQTZs

Could you run a battle belt to get started in 3-gun, for sure. Your first few matches what gear you're using won't have a huge outcome with how you place. But as you go along, you'll most likely end up going with a competition type belt and sending the battle belt to dust collection duty.

[LumberZach]

I think a battle belt would work great for competition until you can outshoot your gear. Which should be a while if you are just starting out. The 3 gun belt won't do very well for SHTF however. I am just starting in 3 gun and action sports and this is my plan. Of course I have been shooting all of my sports with pouches and holster directly on a 5.11 instructor belt. I have a long way to go in competition before I "need" top of the line competition gear. But I do like mall ninja and the like quite a bit as well...

My $.02

[andrewP]

I also use a SERPA both for three gun and for whatever may come. Not sure where the fear comes from. You would have to succumb to some really bad tactics or habits to make it dangerous in the least.

Better than I could say it, and with more detail and real-world experience than I possess:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8848

That is why I will look elsewhere if I ever find myself in the market for a retention holster.

[Jackpine Savage]

Forget knitting, it's dangerous, think repetitive motion injury.

For 3 gun I am still staying on the cheap side. Course I'm not up there on the leader board either. I use Ready Tactical clip on pouches on my usual leather carry belt, 3 pistol (I miss a lot) and one AR.

For shotgun stages I put on a second belt (Wilderness) with my California competition works shotshells caddies and slide it around so the caddies are in the front and the belt runs under my holster. It's a hassle and not very high speed.

Up till now I've run a Kytac open top holster and cranked the tension down. I just got a g-code holster and I'm not sure if I like it. The thumb release lever is in the way of getting a good firing grip. You can force your thumb between the thumb lever and the pistol but it going to be painful after many repetitions. I looked briefly at a Bladetech WRS sitting on someones belt and it seems like the lever is farther forward and out of the way. I'm thinking about shortening up the lever on the g-code. I'd be interested in others experience with this. Maybe I just don't know how to use it.

[UnaStamus]

The 3-gun vs Battle Belt setups are completely different in design and functionality. What you have to understand is that 3-gun setups are designed for speed, not rough retention. You can run and jump with them as they have some retention, but it's not to the level that one would need for tactical use where you would be doing a lot more high intensity activity with more impacts to the body on the ground, surrounding objects and whatnot. In contrast, the Battle Belt has better retention and better long term comfort due to more padding, but it generally is heavier, has slower functional speed for drawing mags and such, and tends to be a bit more obtrusive in design and size. Each has strengths and weaknesses.

I have run a 3-gun setup in years past, but I've since stopped doing USPSA style competition shooting in favor of tactical competitions. For what I do now, I have to run at least a battle belt, but I run both the belt and a chest rig or armor carrier (depending on what is required). I'll touch on some tactical gear subjects one-by-one, based on my experience in the Army, combat, law enforcement, LE tactical operations and tactical training. I will also add some stuff that I've seen through training that other students have experienced, be it good or bad.

Battle Belts:
The first thing to do is look at battle belts and see what is available. Different belts have different features that can either be advantageous or disadvantageous. Some are more rigid than others, and some have more padding while others are more minimalist.
Crye Precision has a minimalist Modular Riggers Belt (MRB) that is just a system of inner and outer belts with an add-on MOLLE option. They also offer two variations of padded battle belts.
FirstSpear makes a great padded AGB sleeve that is one of the most comfortable belts out there.
Aside from those, you also have good options from HSGI, SOE Gear and Tactical Tailor. I would also agree that the VTAC Brokos belt is a waste and not all that great of a belt. It has some design flaws. Tyr Tactical has two Brokos Belt variants that are far better, with their low profile model being a great product.
Whatever you decide, you need to have a stiff rigger's belt to support the Battle Belt. Make sure it's a stiff one, and not the normal belts. I prefer the HSGI and FirstSpear variants, but most are pretty similar in design. I would highly recommend the cobra belt buckle though.

Holsters:
Friction type holsters like the custom molded Kydex options can work, but they're a lot more restrictive in function and mounting than duty type holsters. The problem is that friction fit holsters do not have mechanical retention, and thus can be jarred loose with any type of impact onto the gun. I've seen people use these holsters for tactical training, and they work up until the first time the shooter goes prone and rolls to the weapon side, and the gun gets loosened. I use a Raven Concealment Phantom holster for plain clothes work because it's discrete and easily conceals a full size pistol with WML. I don't use that holster for tactical work.
I would highly recommend a Safariland ALS/SLS/7TS , BladeTech Duty or G-Code XST/SOC holsters. All of those holsters are very durable and reliable, and they have positive mechanical retention that resists fouling/malfunction. The big thing to consider is that battle belts tend to sit slightly higher, so you may need an extension adapter for the holster.

As for the Sherpa, it's bad holster. I speak from experience on this one. First off, the polymer they use is soft, so you can rip the holster right off the belt loop. I've seen this happen with a level 2 concealment Sherpa, and I've heard of it happening with the drop-leg platform as well. The only Blackchicken! holsters that use higher strength polymer are the duty holsters, and even that is subjective because the thumb lock on the Level 3 model is pretty flimsy and flexible/cheap. The EPOCH is a new design and I have yet to play with it, but the Sherpa finger lock has documented problems. The big known problem is the "Tex Grebner" issue where it can cause an ND. The other issue is that the lock housing is very tight and does not drain, so it gets easily jammed/locked up. I've seen three holsters become locked up due to the detritus in the lock mechanism. Two were locked due to sand and dirt, and oddly enough, they locked in the open/release position. Most stuff I've read about have been the level locking in the closed/retention position. There are numerous accounts of these holsters having to be cut open in the field to draw the gun, and given my experiences, I can believed it. One of the holsters that locked was mine before I knew better. The third holster locked closed due to snow jammed into the locking lever. I've wrestled with people in the snow, so I know how much of a danger this can be, which is why all my duty holsters are now Safariland. As stated above, if any of the Safariland, Blade-Tech or G-Code holsters have fouling, they have built-in failsafes that prevent them from permanently locking up. As much as I've abused to piss out of my holsters, I've never once had a Safariland ALS or SLS holster lock on me. I don't know anyone who has, but if the ALS lever does lock up, it's an easy fix.
Nothing against 3-Gun as a sport, but it hardly tests holster durability and reliability as a whole. The same with general range use. For those environments, the Sherpa holster generally works fine.
I personally won't own anything by Blackchicken! because I know the politics behind their business and how they steal technology. The reason their pouches and gear are good quality is because it's stolen from another company and wasn't developed in-house.

Pouches:
You can get whatever you want that works, but I would caution you to avoid magazine pouches that hold multiple magazines in each opening. These pouches tend to have poor retention once you take one magazine out, and you will see mags start spilling out when someone runs or goes to the prone. The exception to this are pouches that individual magazine retention features.
I like the retention and fast-access feature of the HSGI Taco pouches, but they are incredibly difficult to reload one-handed. If you pull a mag out, it's nice and fast. If you then decide to front-fill your pouches, it's very difficult to put a magazine into a Taco pouch without using two hands and extended time. They're high quality pouches and a good design for retention and modularity, so all is not lost. I gave them an honest try, and they were more trouble than they were worth for my needs, though they do make a great flashlight holder.

I would definitely recommend a dump pouch. I've used several different kinds, but Emdom-MM is by far the best that I've used to date. It is large enough to carry all your spent mags, plus other items, and it has flaps the prevent items from spilling out. Most other stuff I've used has allowed items to spill or bounce out when running, going to prone, getting into unconventional shooting positions, or when sitting. The HSGI Mag-Net Dump Pouch is relatively newer pouch and it's a very well-designed and lightweight option. I have yet to try it out, but the concept seems solid.


As for chest rigs, that's a separate topic altogether and I could write a diatribe on what I've learned and observed. I will say that pre-set non-modular tactical vests (like what Blackchicken! and Condor sell) are junk and should be avoided. They are one-size-fits-none, have poor pouch placement, no modularity, and poor magazine retention. The same with the generic chest rigs with built-in mag pouches with poor retention- they suck too. There are tons of high quality options of various price points that can be tailored to your needs, and they're much better than the generic cookie-cutter crap.

[shooter115]

Holsters:
Friction type holsters like the custom molded Kydex options can work, but they're a lot more restrictive in function and mounting than duty type holsters. The problem is that friction fit holsters do not have mechanical retention, and thus can be jarred loose with any type of impact onto the gun. I've seen people use these holsters for tactical training, and they work up until the first time the shooter goes prone and rolls to the weapon side, and the gun gets loosened. I use a Raven Concealment Phantom holster for plain clothes work because it's discrete and easily conceals a full size pistol with WML. I don't use that holster for tactical work.
I would highly recommend a Safariland ALS/SLS/7TS , BladeTech Duty or G-Code XST/SOC holsters. All of those holsters are very durable and reliable, and they have positive mechanical retention that resists fouling/malfunction. The big thing to consider is that battle belts tend to sit slightly higher, so you may need an extension adapter for the holster.

As for the Sherpa, it's bad holster. I speak from experience on this one. First off, the polymer they use is soft, so you can rip the holster right off the belt loop. I've seen this happen with a level 2 concealment Sherpa, and I've heard of it happening with the drop-leg platform as well. The only Blackchicken! holsters that use higher strength polymer are the duty holsters, and even that is subjective because the thumb lock on the Level 3 model is pretty flimsy and flexible/cheap. The EPOCH is a new design and I have yet to play with it, but the Sherpa finger lock has documented problems. The big known problem is the "Tex Grebner" issue where it can cause an ND. The other issue is that the lock housing is very tight and does not drain, so it gets easily jammed/locked up. I've seen three holsters become locked up due to the detritus in the lock mechanism. Two were locked due to sand and dirt, and oddly enough, they locked in the open/release position. Most stuff I've read about have been the level locking in the closed/retention position. There are numerous accounts of these holsters having to be cut open in the field to draw the gun, and given my experiences, I can believed it. One of the holsters that locked was mine before I knew better. The third holster locked closed due to snow jammed into the locking lever. I've wrestled with people in the snow, so I know how much of a danger this can be, which is why all my duty holsters are now Safariland. As stated above, if any of the Safariland, Blade-Tech or G-Code holsters have fouling, they have built-in failsafes that prevent them from permanently locking up. As much as I've abused to piss out of my holsters, I've never once had a Safariland ALS or SLS holster lock on me. I don't know anyone who has, but if the ALS lever does lock up, it's an easy fix.
Nothing against 3-Gun as a sport, but it hardly tests holster durability and reliability as a whole. The same with general range use. For those environments, the Sherpa holster generally works fine

I'm not going to say the SERPA is the best holster out there, because it's not by a long shot. Here's how I ended up using one. 3 years ago at my first major 3-gun match, which was the Midwest 3-gun Championships in Missouri. I was using a Bladetech Stingray for my six month's in the sport and it's what I had at this match. First stage, second shooter in our squad (who had driven from somewhere out on the east coast). Stage started with the rifle and a hot holstered handgun. Shooter had to engage some targets at 200 yards then move laterally to a second firing position. When this dude turned and started to run the tip of his stock hit the sights of his pistol perfectly and badda-boom you have a loaded Glock spinning 6' in the air. Yea it was a bit of a pucker moment and the shooter was DQ'd from the match.....and he was using the same Bladetech Stingray friction retention holster I was using. Right there is where I had a big "oh....that's why some guys swear by positive retention holsters" moment. For the rest of that match I don't think I took more than 2 steps without putting my hand on my pistol and had the retention cranked down so tight it gave me a wedgie every time I would draw.

At the time of this match I was shooting the relatively new Springfield XDm 5.25 and there were very limited options for holsters period...let alone retention holsters. In fact the only one available was the Serpa for the 4.5" gun would fit. So that's what I got. As far as the durability of the belt loops or paddle, to that I can't speak. As soon as mine came out of the package I screwed it onto the DOH mount from my Stingray and have been using it for 3 years without trouble through some of the most physical 3-gun matches in the country. Today there are a few more options with the thumb release hood, but I've been shooting and training with the Serpa for so long that it would take some time to adapt.

As far as safety goes, I'm kind of surprised you brought up the "Tex Grubner" incident. As that was user error that had nothing to do with equipment, other that switching between holster designs without training. It took him two major gun safety errors to shoot himself in the leg. He had been using a thumb drive holster and as such when he drew he disengaged the safety of the 1911. Then he released the retention on the Serpa and immediately placed his finger inside the trigger guard and bam. He even made a second video putting all the blame on himself for that one.

Nother thing worth mentioning is price. The Serpa is about $35 the Safariland ALS is about $100. Now as a fairly serious competitive shooter I might have spent $100 on a holster if one was available. I don't know how much the average Joe is going to want to drop a C note on a holster. The G-Code is a different story, but as mentioned above by Jackpine the thumb release is pretty close to the body of the holster and grip. But at only $40 or so I've been tempted numerous times to buy one just to see how I like it.