ASP batons

[yukonjasper]

My cousin is looking for a non-lethal weapon to carry in addition to his usual carry. The ASP Baton caught his eye and He and I are wondering if anyone has any experience with them and what to look for when purchasing. Also, where is the best place to find one. Your knowledge and opinions are welcome.

[bstrawse]

I have one I carried when I worked in law enforcement - I liked it as an impact weapon but I was also trained properly (and practiced) on how to use it. I would recommend the same.

My department purchased from a local policy supply place (this was in Indiana) - you can find them at Galls.com and similar sites.

b

[EAJuggalo]

I've got a 26" galls friction lock that I used when I was doing security that I will let go for $50 with a nylon holster for it. This is the older model that is made by ASP not like the newer ones that are made by monandock.

[Paul]

My cousin is looking for a non-lethal weapon to carry in addition to his usual carry. The ASP Baton caught his eye and He and I are wondering if anyone has any experience with them and what to look for when purchasing. Also, where is the best place to find one. Your knowledge and opinions are welcome.

All legal issues aside, here is my opinion on the batons, based on my experience of 8+ years in law enforcement, and speaking as a police use of force instructor.

First off, your cousin needs to realize that expandable batons ARE NOT "non-lethal", they are "less-lethal". You can still easily kill someone with a baton, break brones, or cause other serious, permanent injuries. It's an important distinction, and consideration. If an encounter warrants potentially breaking bones or causing other great bodily harm or injury, a firearm might be more appropriate. Either way, if he decides to get one, he should get appropriate training on its use and function.

With that being said, there are several manufacturers of expandable batons. The three most common brands are ASP, Monadnock, and Casco. I would also rate them on quality in that order also. I have a few batons from those three manufactures that I have either been issued, obtained, or been given for testing and training. I currently carry a Casco baton, that I got as a demo to test out. You should stick with one of those three, and not even consider anything less, in my opinion. They will run you $50+ whether ordering from catalogs, or in retail outlets like Streicher's. You can buy cheap, off brands, for around $10 on up, but they don't function properly, will bend easily, and often times fall apart when you are using them.

The batons also come in several sizes, but the most common are 16", 21", and 26". Of those three sizes, the 26" models are by far the most effective. The advantages of a longer baton are increased striking power, and that they allow a greater distance between you and the person you are striking. On the flip side, they are longer to carry, so the 16" models have an advantage as far as concealing is concerned. In my opinion, the advantages that the increased length offer outweigh the disadvantages of having to carry a longer baton. Like I said, the 26" models are more effective, and the object is to stop an attack with the fewest number of strikes possible. There are several reasons why this is important, from both a safety and legal stand point.

There are a few ways to carry a baton. Some slip it into a pants pocket, others get belt carriers that come in leather, plastic, or nylon. I have also seen baton shoulder holsters in catalogs before. Another consideration when looking into buying a baton is the locking system. Most are friction lock batons, which means you have to rapidly swing the baton upwards or downwards, and the force causes the interior sections to extend, and lock in place. In order to close the baton, you need to forcefully pound the end of it onto the ground, or a concrete hard surface in order to close it. Another option is the Autolock batons, like Monadnock makes. They work on a cam and ball bearing action, which will expand/deploy in the same manner, but can be closed by hand, with a button on the rear of the baton. I personally use traditional, friction lock batons, but the Autolocks are a nice option.

With all that being said, I don't know if expandable batons are a worthwhile personal defense option. I think you will find very few cops have actually used their baton to strike a person. I have never used my baton against a person. I have used it several times to break windows, and once for intimidation/crowd control. Many departments and officers are actually going away from batons, or making them optional, now that Tasers are standard issue.

So overall, they are flashy, and can be effective, but some sort of OC/mace/pepper spray would be a better option, in my opinion.

[Snowgun]

All legal issues aside,
.

What are the legal issues with carrying a baton?

[Paul]

What are the legal issues with carrying a baton?

Carrying a weapon in general. The fact that you can use it and someone may die. You could be charged with a crime. All things to consider when carrying a weapon.

The purpose of my post was to respond about the expandable batons specifically, not to get into legal issues of carrying weapons.

[monschman]

I will echo user842 here and add and stress that proper training is absolutely essential and before you carry ask yourself how comfort!ble you are getting that personal in a confrontation. A baton is a formidable weapon in the right hands. In untrained hands I have watched a guy get his collarbone and cheekbones shattered by an inexperienced security guard, in that instance the guard went away for aggrivated assault and is probably paying for homies bling bling. I have also watched an inexperienced operator in a training scenario get owned by a smaller female who managed to take the baton off him, had it been real life, guy would be using an assistant to wipe his butt today. I currently do not allow any of my officers to carry them unless they show and demonstrate proficiency , stick with a proven irritant or better yet a gun. Legally you can carry them in mn, other states are a lot more restrictive on this though so check your local laws. Me I carry a 19" asp

[RobD]

IMHO, OC spray makes much more sense to carry over a baton. Easier, longer range, lighter, smaller and truly non-lethal.

[Paul]

IMHO, OC spray makes much more sense to carry over a baton. Easier, longer range, lighter, smaller and truly non-lethal.

They are still classified as a less-lethal agent, not a non-lethal one. Although rare, there have been numerous reports listing OC as a contributing factor in deaths.

[RobD]

They are still classified as a less-lethal agent, not a non-lethal one. Although rare, there have been numerous reports listing OC as a contributing factor in deaths.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but OC spray (barring any allergies/health concerns) cannot kill a normal, healthy person...

[Paul]

They are still classified as a less-lethal agent, not a non-lethal one. Although rare, there have been numerous reports listing OC as a contributing factor in deaths.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but OC spray (barring any allergies/health concerns) cannot kill a normal, healthy person...

That's more or less true. That's why I said it's been reported as a contributing factor in deaths, not necessarily a direct cause of death. Just trying to clarify that it's less-lethal, not 'truly non-lethal' as you said in your previous post. It's important to realize that any weapon/personal protection device you deploy, can have unintended consequences.

[RobD]

That's more or less true. That's why I said it's been reported as a contributing factor in deaths, not necessarily a direct cause of death. Just trying to clarify that it's less-lethal, not 'truly non-lethal' as you said in your previous post. It's important to realize that any weapon/personal protection device you deploy, can have unintended consequences.

I see what you're saying.... Can anything be called "non-lethal" then? I mean... a slap in the face can kill someone with an aneurysm.

[Paul]

I see what you're saying.... Can anything be called "non-lethal" then? I mean... a slap in the face can kill someone with an aneurysm.

Probably not in a legal/liability sense of the word... Which is why terminology has transitioned from non to less.


Here is the Wikipedia listing/definition of "non-lethal rounds".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less-letha ... _rounds.22

Non-lethal or less-lethal rounds are firearm rounds which are designed to incapacitate, but not kill, a target. The rounds rely on the transfer of kinetic energy to accomplish this incapacitation. Rubber bullets, wax bullets, plastic bullets, beanbag rounds, and rubber bullets with electroshock effect (e.g. Taser XREP rounds) are less lethal than conventional metal bullets, and are also propelled at lower speed. (Gunpowder is not used, only a percussion cap.) "Bean bag" type bullets are sometimes referred to as flexible baton rounds. More recently, high-velocity paintball guns are also used to launch less-lethal rounds, including the FN 303 launcher and PepperBall [6] commercial products. There is also the Variable Velocity Weapon Concept,[7] for which a propulsion energy source may not yet have been clearly established and/or finalized. In any case, all of these technologies apply the same basic mechanism, which is to launch a mass at the target that interacts kinetically.
Because the impact energy varies based on engagement range, it is accepted that less lethal ammunition in some scenarios may cause injury. The risk of adverse effects: contusions, abrasions, broken ribs, concussions, loss of eyes, superficial organ damage, serious skin lacerations, massive skull fractures, rupture of the heart or kidney, fragmentation of the liver, hemorrhages, and death are considerable.[citation needed] Policies for determining if medical assistance should be contacted immediately after an actual deployment of a less-lethal munition (even if no physical injuries appear on subject or subjects) are usually determined by the organization using such devices. There is currently no universal consensus policy paper to suggest an alternative.

Wikipedia, a reliable and infallible interweb resource, lumps non-lethal and less-lethal into one category. Several of the items on there, like bean bags rounds, could easily cause death. It is what it is.

All the same, I'm with you in that I would rather take my chances and spray someone from 10' away with OC, then hit them with a metal stick while 2' away.

[Paul]

From that same Wikipedia article, here's what it says for safety warnings and controversies related to less-lethal weapons.

Safety Controversy

Less-lethal weapons are intended to minimize injury or death. While people are occasionally seriously injured or killed by these weapons, fatalities are relatively infrequent. Causes of death from non-lethal weapons are varied and occasionally uncertain. Misplaced or ricocheting shots, pre-existing medical conditions, inadequate user training, repetitive applications and intentional misuse have been implicated in different cases.

As different parts of the body differ in vulnerability, and because people vary in weight and fitness, any weapon powerful enough to incapacitate may be capable of killing under certain circumstances. Thus "non-lethal force" does have some risk of causing death: in this context "non-lethal" means only "not intended to kill". Two alternate terms, "less than lethal" and particularly "less-lethal", are being used in place of "non-lethal" by many weapons manufacturers and law enforcement agencies, and by those who oppose their common use in riot control. This term is intended to emphasize that they tend to kill or injure far fewer people than traditional weapons.

Several groups maintain there is great room for improvement in non-lethal weapons and procedures for their use. Claims for the relative safety of such weapons are usually contingent on their being used "properly." For example, the rubber bullets developed during the 1960s were supposed to be fired at the ground and hit the target only after ricochet[5], and other non-lethal bullets are designed to be fired at the lower body; they can be lethal if fired directly at the head, as commonly happens.

[Paul]

I take back my previous baton recommendations... I just came across this tacticool ninja model.

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/Push ... 16899.html