Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

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Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby Big and Tasty on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:04 pm

All, I have been researching, researching and more researching for some time now. I am torn between which one to mount on the ol´ AR. Thanks to a few folks at OGC, I have tried each over the past months but am torn between two lovers. Which would you get?
Considerations: middle aged eyes, standard front post with Magpul BU rear, primary function is to serve in a CQB role - meaning point blank to perhaps 125 yards which is pretty much the limit for my Mr Magoo eyes.

All that said, what would you buy? Why?

Thanks for the advice :D
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby Scratch on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:52 pm

I've had both, I sold my Eotech XPS2-0 and now have the Aimpont PRO.

there are pros and cons to each, and each, IMO... are great optics. I wish I would have kept the Eotech now though, since I'd kinda like to go with the square look on my pistol.

Eotech XPS2-0

PROS:
Lighter
Larger window
Square look (preference)
65MOA ring with 1MOA dot (preference)

CONS:
No NVG capabilities (that model)
Buttons on back are hard to reach with magnifier on
Little higher cost



Aimpoint PRO

PROS:
Round look (preference)
Much higher battery life
Built in caps
No need to open caps to use
Auto tightening mount
2MOA dot (preference)
NVG built in

CONS:
Heavier
Not quite as bright as Eotech
I found the 65 MOA ring distracting and liked the 2MOA dot better. I do wish the PRO was lighter though and a little brighter. I wasn't a big fan of the square look though, that the battery life, the reticle, the caps, and the auto tightening mount are what sold me on it.

The correct answer is obviously both.

FWIW, I've heard the SWAT team likes the Eotechs since they're usually closer range, and the Military likes the PRO since they shoot longer range. I'm not either so I don't know, and since you've been doing lots of research, you probably knew that.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby Hmac on Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:20 pm

This is a common argument. IMHO, the PRO gets the advantage because of it's price, assuming all other features to be equal. For me, I generally prefer the Eotech reticle, but the price of the Aimpoint PRO vs the EXPS series of Eotechs doesn't trump the reticle preference for me. If you're neutral on the reticle and place a premium on the much longer battery life of the the Aimpoint, then clearly the Aimpoint PRO is the way to go. I find the longer battery life to be a mere convenience, but not something I care very much about. IMHO, weight, field of view, wiindow shape, etc make no difference.

I'm not interested in the XPS series of Eotechs nor the inline battery models. For me, it's been the EXPS series or an Aimpoint. For me, it's the EXPS series because I prefer the lower third co-witness, and definitely prefer the buttons on the back (magnifier). Note that the OPMOD at Optics Planet is actually an EXPS 3 with night vision not implemented. You save some money if you're not using NV, and I don't.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby Mn01r6 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:37 pm

I have owned a Pro and sold it to a board member in favor of the Eo because I thought it did better with my astigmatism. It doesn't, but I do like the 65moa ring for shooting the very short range hoser stuff in 3gun. If not shooting competitively or on am entry team, you probably won't be 20 feet away from your target too often, so it would be a horse a piece.

FWIW, the Pro fogged up on me BAD when shooting in the rain. I don't know of the Eo is just back far enough from the barrel that the steam doesn't condense or if it is something to do with the optical coating or materials used? Maybe someone who knows more about them both can answer that.

In all, I am happy with my XPS2-2 and I won't be moving to another RDS. One of them fancy 1-6 power Swarovski's on a dedicated race gun? Maybe, but don't tell my wife :)
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby UnaStamus on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:35 am

There is a lot of misinformation about the use of EOTechs, and a lot of it comes from what people visibly see groups like SOCOM or SWAT doing, but not what happens behind the scenes.

As a way to explain this, I have to tell a long-winded story. Three years ago, our SWAT commander approached me and asked me to put together a price sheet for replacement CQB optics for the SWAT rifles. The current optics were all Trijicon RX01 1x24 reflex sights. The tritium had all worn down to the point where it was basicallyl worthless in all but pitch black. I put together a price sheet and included several points about why I recommended Aimpoints. Our agency only had experience with Trijicon, because Trijicon makes military optics, and Trijicon optics don't need batteries. Magic happiness. A neighboring county SWAT has AA battery powered EOTechs, and those are constantly dying and having battery issues (battery bounce). So, by our SWAT commander's understanding, all battery-powered optics are the work of satan. All we knew was Trijicon, so we got more Trijicon. Trijicon RX34 1x42 reflex sights.
Fast-foward to 2012, and on the patrol division side we got money for optics and I demanded the Aimpoint PRO due to simplicity and reliability. We got the PRO. To this day, 2.5yrs later, most our optics are still on the original battery and going strong. We leave our optics constantly on at setting 7 when in storage in the cars.
Fast-forward again to 3 months ago and the SWAT guys are all just fed up with the Trijicon Reflex sights because the dual-illumination technology washes out very easily since it's not adjustable. People are losing their reticles. It took years of frustration before they finally acknowledged that they were buying an antiquated optic from the start. Which, by the way, I told them three years ago. I was against it from the start, and I saw this train wreck coming. Well, now our SWAT guys all have experience with the Aimpoints on the patrol rifles, so now all SWAT rifles (HK416, HK UMP40, HK G36C) have Aimpoint Micro T1 optics and are happier than fat kids at an Old Country Buffet.

Our SWAT team was using Trijicon and kept using and "liking" Trijicon because they literally did not know any better. They had no experience with anything else, so they assumed that what they had was good since they had been making it by with it.
So here's my point- many tactical groups and professional gunfighters/door kickers/etc actually have very little functional knowledge of the equipment they use beyond being able to turn it on and off. I would not say that SWAT guys prefer EOTech, because I know a ton of SWAT guys from around MN, IA and WI that all run Aimpoint. Officers/operators who know what they are doing and know about these products will use whatever they like the most, so long as they are approved to use them. What winds up happening is just like with my agency and our SWAT team, where you have one or two people that actually know what they're doing, or actually have some kind of product knowledge. Guys like me will institute optics and weapon usage based on personal knowledge. Others may do it out of bias. For a long time, there were a lot of people running EOs because the one guy with the clout liked the reticle, so now everyone is obviously going to like it since the one guy that has all of the power likes it, and all you peons don't know anything so just like what I tell you to like...
It's a two-way street because a lot of Aimpoints and Trijicon ACOGs have been adopted simply because they're in the military parts distribution chain.

Now, on another site a guy was trying to decide and someone posted that EO was what all of the SOCOM/SOF community was using. That was wrong to a degree, but there was some truth. SEALs held on to EOTechs for a long time, but that's because a couple people with all of the buying power bought the optics, and the optics were now the only thing in the supply chain. NSWC/Crane and NAVSPEC have since parted ways with L3 Communications (EOTech) contracts, but optics are still around and in use.
In asmuch, the current US Army M68 CCO (Close Combat Optic) is the Aimpoint CompM4. Before that it was the CompM3, adn before that the CompM2. Before that it was the Trijicon RX01 Reflex. A lot of people use this stuff simply because it's what is in the system and available.

Keep in mind that a majority of cops and military personnel know jack squat about guns and optics. A lot think they do, but they don't. I was in that category before I decided to actually get educated and pull my head out of my anus. There are solid cops like Dave@huldraarms and 10-32Solutions who do in fact know their stuff about guns and optics and gear. However, for every one of those guys, there are 20 or 30 ignorant cops who only know what they told by someone else that one time at that range or in the Army/Corps.

I was at a carbine instructor course recently and we had several cops that had EOTechs. They were typical cops that didn't know a whole lot, but they all liked the reticle. None of them could tell you the signifigance of the 65moa circle surrounding the 1moa dot, or who you use the reticle in CQB to account for mechanical offset. It didn't matter because they liked the way the reticle looked. I have actually decided that most like the reticle because it's ginormous and easy to put onto the body of a target. However, this comes in as a problem because under stress and time constraints, we start to see people without the proper training start to aim with the whole 65moa circle, and their groups look like a shotgun pattern.


So my point is simply that it comes down to what you personally ultimately know about each optic, and what you like the most. Personally, I have nothing good to say about EOTurds because I've seen a lot of them crap the bed. However, I cannot discount or discredit the accounts of people who have had positive experiences with them. Aimpoints are durable, they're simple, and the battery life is outstanding. The PRO is annoying because it's an absolute co-witness versus the preferred Lower-1/3, but it's not a major problem. On the opposite hand, EOTechs have their followers, and for legitimate reasons.
Whatever you decide, don't make your decision based off of what _____ SWAT or ______ SOF unit uses. There are reasons why they use those optics, they're not necessarily legitimate. Do your own research.
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Postby Bignuts on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:19 am

Aimpoint sold me on battery life.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby Uffdaphil on Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:56 am

I've sold my EXPS because I find the circle/dot distracting and did not like the push buttons. My Aimpoints - Pro, M2 and T1 all feel more intuitive to adjust brightness and the dot is quick to pick up even occluded (front lens cover closed).

The new USA version of the Israeli military red dot has a lot of things to recommend it too; large rectangular window, Aimpoint type reticle, motion detector battery saver. At the PRO pricepoint but with built in QD mount. My pre-order is due mid-August.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... lex-sight/

Not to be confused with the Meprolight 21 fiber optic which had washout issues.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby Big and Tasty on Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:32 pm

Thanks for the input so far. I think the overall winner here is going to be the PRO. Fleet Farm in N St. Paul has one in the case for $409.
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Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby whiteox on Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:30 am

I've got a PRO that's never been mounted that I'm looking to sell. Still in the box.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby GNCAaron on Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:51 pm

I got the Aimpoint, simply because I hate the 4 or 8 hour auto-shutoff function on the EO Techs.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby UnaStamus on Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:34 pm

GNCAaron wrote:I got the Aimpoint, simply because I hate the 4 or 8 hour auto-shutoff function on the EO Techs.

I know of several instances where those reticles shut off on SOF and SWAT operators actively working missions or call-outs.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby Hmac on Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:00 pm

GNCAaron wrote:I got the Aimpoint, simply because I hate the 4 or 8 hour auto-shutoff function on the EO Techs.


It's never bothered me, but my needs are such that battery life and auto shut-off aren't a problem. I do kind of like the Eotechs. Having said that, I did just pick up a new PRO for $340 off the equipment exchange on one of the gun forums, for use on a rifle I'm putting together on a BAD lower, Voodoo melonite barrel, and a KMR rail. That was too good a deal to pass up. The PRO is a great optic.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby jshuberg on Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:21 pm

I've got an Aimpoint, an EOtech, and an ACOG on different rifles. They're all good, solid optics.

The EOtech is a bit big and heavy for what it is, but I like the reticle. With a 50 yard zero the bottom of the 65MOA reticle is the POI at around 10 yards. The circle tends to grab the eye quickly and draws attention to the center dot. It does eat batteries quite a bit tho. One thing that I've heard can be an advantage is that there is a psychology to the rectangular window. It really only applies to combat, but the mind tends to isolate the shooter from the target via the window. The mind sees it as a TV or movie screen, which allows the shooter to emotionally disassociate from the target where he might otherwise become emotional about killing another human being. All optics do this to one extent or another, but supposedly (I don't have the study anymore) the rectangular window is better at this emotional isolation of the shooter than a round optic. I have no personal experience, but thought the idea was interesting.

The Aimpoint just works. It's lighter, battery life isn't an issue, and "fits" on the rifle better. The disadvantage is that the dot is bigger, and without anything but a single dot in the reticle, rapid acquisition of the dot is a little slower. I turn the brightness up a bit more than the EOtech so the eye catches the dot better, but that results in the dot being slightly washed out compared to the EOtech. Truth be told though, I like to run my EOtech pretty dim.

Honestly I prefer the ACOG as a general purpose optic. It's magnified, and when using the Bindon Aiming Concept you can switch between 0-4x magnification in your head - no need to break your grip or fiddle with controls. Also has a BDC reticle, and I like the chevron for aiming. It's large, grabs the eye well, and it has a really fine tip for precision aiming. Target acquisition is almost as fast as the Eotech, and provides for greater accuracy, especially at longer distances using the BDC. Only real disadvantage is cost, and that there is no way to turn down the brightness other than obscuring part of the fiber on top.

I'm not an optics expert by any means, but given the choice I'd go ACOG, Aimpoint, EOtech in that order. It might be different if I were in combat, but I'm not, and I'm not going to pretend that I am. Too many people do in my opinion when choosing gear.
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby Hmac on Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:06 pm

jshuberg wrote:I'm not an optics expert by any means, but given the choice I'd go ACOG, Aimpoint, EOtech in that order. It might be different if I were in combat, but I'm not, and I'm not going to pretend that I am. Too many people do in my opinion when choosing gear.


Why have a red dot sight then? A cheap Weaver scope or plain old irons would suffice, no? For that matter, why do you have an AR15 at all?
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Re: Aimpoint PRO or Eotech XPS 2.0

Postby jshuberg on Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:19 pm

Tons of reasons. They're fun, they're potentially a good investment, they can be used for home security, hunting, competition, recreational shooting, etc. You can build one into an infinite number of possible configurations. It's just a very good rifle system. There's also nothing wrong with building a "military" style weapon, or as close as you're legally able to get.

My point is that a lot of people simply look to what the military (or law enforcement) is using, and buy that thinking that it will also be the best for their needs. That isn't always the case - especially with an EOtech. Like I said I've got one, and aside from the theoretical physiological effect using one has in a combat situation, I don't see it as very practical. It's just kind of overkill and bulky unless the goal is to build a particular "military" style weapon or a range toy. I've got one on my full-auto AR just cause it's fun.

The advantage to the red dot style optics (either reflexive or holographic) is that it grabs the eye quickly, and doesn't require a perfect alignment of the eye with the weapon in order to aim. The ACOG on the other hand does have to be lined up correctly with the eye, but has several other advantages that red dots don't have (magnification, ballistic reticle, etc). It's a trade off of features. What the military chooses, and what a civilian chooses isn't always going to be the same thing. And that includes law enforcement.

For the OP, I'd go with the aimpoint unless you have some specific reasoning why an EOtech is needed.
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