Tactical/precision scope.

[Ghost]

I only have mildot scopes. Once you pick a path you have to stay on it. Get a ballistic calculator for your phone, assuming you have a smart one, I use ballistic AE. Also could get a mildot master and book. There are also simulators to help with learning ranging, I think the one I have is shooterready, they have a demo you can try online before buying just google it.

Try that demo and you can probably switch between MOA and Mildot to see if you prefer one or the other. I designed large equipment in metric for several years so metric makes a lot of sense to me.

[Erud]

No problem. Just an FYI, technically speaking, neither of the 2 systems are actually "metric" or "standard". They are literally just 2 different methods of dividing up a circle. It's mostly coincidental how well they happen to work with inches and centimeters, and you could actually use any unit of measurement with either scale. Somebody less dumb than me can probably explain it better, but googling the terms "radian" and "Minute of Arc" will give you a general understanding of where they came from. For some reason, some people are really touchy about saying that the Mil scale is a "metric" system...

[LumberZach]

No problem. Just an FYI, technically speaking, neither of the 2 systems are actually "metric" or "standard". They are literally just 2 different methods of dividing up a circle. It's mostly coincidental how well they happen to work with inches and centimeters, and you could actually use any unit of measurement with either scale. Somebody less dumb than me can probably explain it better, but googling the terms "radian" and "Minute of Arc" will give you a general understanding of where they came from. For some reason, some people are really touchy about saying that the Mil scale is a "metric" system...

Very interesting, I've never heard this. Good info to know going forward.

So the big picture is that if I shoot nra/f-class style competition or just in a back yard with buddies who are using MOA, MOA will be the better route. But "tactical" long range competitions and possibly other tactical classes and such will be better suited for MRAD.


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[Ghost]

No problem. Just an FYI, technically speaking, neither of the 2 systems are actually "metric" or "standard". They are literally just 2 different methods of dividing up a circle. It's mostly coincidental how well they happen to work with inches and centimeters, and you could actually use any unit of measurement with either scale. Somebody less dumb than me can probably explain it better, but googling the terms "radian" and "Minute of Arc" will give you a general understanding of where they came from. For some reason, some people are really touchy about saying that the Mil scale is a "metric" system...

True, I just use the 1 mil at 100 meters is 10 cm, 200m is 20cm, 300m is 30cm....

[Erud]

No problem. Just an FYI, technically speaking, neither of the 2 systems are actually "metric" or "standard". They are literally just 2 different methods of dividing up a circle. It's mostly coincidental how well they happen to work with inches and centimeters, and you could actually use any unit of measurement with either scale. Somebody less dumb than me can probably explain it better, but googling the terms "radian" and "Minute of Arc" will give you a general understanding of where they came from. For some reason, some people are really touchy about saying that the Mil scale is a "metric" system...

Very interesting, I've never heard this. Good info to know going forward.

So the big picture is that if I shoot nra/f-class style competition or just in a back yard with buddies who are using MOA, MOA will be the better route. But "tactical" long range competitions and possibly other tactical classes and such will be better suited for MRAD.


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I'd say that about sums it up. Definitely go MOA if you are considering F-class, you will not find anyone using mils in that discipline. If you do find someone, it'll just be a new guy who didn't know better and hasn't had the funds to switch yet. Tactical matches will be almost exactly opposite.

[LumberZach]

No problem. Just an FYI, technically speaking, neither of the 2 systems are actually "metric" or "standard". They are literally just 2 different methods of dividing up a circle. It's mostly coincidental how well they happen to work with inches and centimeters, and you could actually use any unit of measurement with either scale. Somebody less dumb than me can probably explain it better, but googling the terms "radian" and "Minute of Arc" will give you a general understanding of where they came from. For some reason, some people are really touchy about saying that the Mil scale is a "metric" system...

Very interesting, I've never heard this. Good info to know going forward.

So the big picture is that if I shoot nra/f-class style competition or just in a back yard with buddies who are using MOA, MOA will be the better route. But "tactical" long range competitions and possibly other tactical classes and such will be better suited for MRAD.


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I'd say that about sums it up. Definitely go MOA if you are considering F-class, you will not find anyone using mils in that discipline. If you do find someone, it'll just be a new guy who didn't know better and hasn't had the funds to switch yet. Tactical matches will be almost exactly opposite.

It's a shame that's the case. But now that we have that hashed out next question. Do I need to jump for a ffp? The viper pst is about $250 difference in ffp and not. I've read lots about them, but I figure all of my adjustments will be in the turrets, and for $250 I could buy an ok range finder rather than using it to range. I suspect this is another Chevy vs Ford, but there may be a few individuals who feel different.


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[hammAR]

Not Ford vs Chevy................
Corvette vs Leaf...........

FFP if you are serious.............

[UnaStamus]

With benchrest, Palma and F-class style shooting, MOA adjustment turrets are almost mandatory due to the extremely fine incremental adjustments. This is why you see target and benchrest scopes with 1/8 MOA adjustment. Most milrad scopes have 0.1mrad adjustment, which corresponds to about 1/3 MOA. With milrad scopes, the finest adjustment you might find is 0.05mrad, which is about 1/6 MOA. The problem is that 0.05mrad turrets are extremely rare, whereas 1/8 MOA are more common.
The caveat to benchrest scopes is that they're generally not very durable when compared to the tactical grade scopes. With the exception of the March scopes, I have yet to find a 0.05 MRAD or 1/8MOA adjustable scope that is durable enough to take the kind of abuse I throw at my rifles. May not be relevant to the discussion, but just food for thought.

The MOA and MRAD argument is indeed 6 of one, half dozen of another like everyone has said. The popularity of MRAD right now is heavily due to the tactical precision community and the military and LE influence on long range precision. Military and LE reticles have been using milrad reticles for decades, and fortunately in the past decade the turrets have caught up to the reticle for continuity and speed. When you jump on a line at a tactical precision rifle match or a tactical precision shooting training course, the vast majority of spotting scopes will have mil reticles of some type. If people are not using spotting scopes, they are using their own riflescopes to spot for other shooters. A vast majority use mil reticles, so most people want that continuity. Nothing sucks more than someone making a correction in one increment that you don't have correlation with. When we train with the snipers, we don't make adjustments based on the reticle, we make them based on the turret. If your reticle and turret don't match, it complicates the process.

If you foresee shooting in a TPRC type match, you can probably find someone with an MOA reticle to spot for you. That said, MRAD is far more common in that shooting community. If you get yourself a spotting scope with MOA reticle, it's obviously not an issue.

[Erud]

Not Ford vs Chevy................
Corvette vs Leaf...........

FFP if you are serious.............

What if you are serious about something like F-Class?

[hammAR]

KD shooting - doesn't matter..........

[Erud]

With benchrest, Palma and F-class style shooting, MOA adjustment turrets are almost mandatory due to the extremely fine incremental adjustments.

There is some correlation there, but it is not cause and effect. The real reason for MOA adjustments in these disciplines is that that's the way it has always been done. Palma(and other NRA Highpower disciplines, with the exception of F-class) has been around a long time, long before scopes were being made with Mil adjustments. The targets have always been calibrated based on MOA measurements(Palma 1000yd target has 1 MOA X-ring, 2 MOA 10-ring, etc). Also, in Palma we shoot with extremely precise iron sights that are only made by a very few extremely specialized shops in the world. I'd guess that all of the Palma shooters in the US use one of about 5 possible rear sights, with a good majority of them (and pretty much ALL of the top-level shooters) all using the same one. There isn't a rear sight that adjusts in Mils, and if there were, it would just make things complicated. This is fine, because it results in us all speaking the same language when talking about targets, adjustments, and wind, from the new guy shooting his first match, to the 75 year old vet who shot his first match in 1955. 1/4x1/4 adjustments definitely make up the vast majority, but there are some very good shooters who use 1/2x1/2 or 1/4x1/2. I have a 1/8x1/8 sight on my smallbore rifle, but I honestly would prefer 1/4x1/4 for that too. F-class is pretty much all 1/4x1/4 or 1/8x1/8 adjustments. In F-Class, a scope reticle with MOA gradations will subtend perfectly on F-class targets(at least when dialed to the proper magnification level), which are half the size of the corresponding Palma(sling) targets.

[Erud]

KD shooting - doesn't matter..........

Ah, I see. You must be a professional sniper, where every shot has to result in a dead terrorist, or American lives will be lost. I'm just a hobbyist. I hope that when TEOTWAWKI comes, you will defend me and my family with your UKD shooting skills, as the years I've put into developing my own shooting skills won't count.

[hammAR]

Your sarcasm and self-deprecation is admirable, however misplaced..................
it's all different games for different folks with different rules.....
and different equipment.....

[Erud]

Your sarcasm and self-deprecation is admirable, however misplaced..................
it's all different games for different folks with different rules.....
and different equipment.....

Yeah, sarcasm and self-deprecation are 2 of my specialties. Since the OP specifically mentioned F-Class shooting in his OP, my question to you regarding FFP for F-Class seemed pertinent to the thread. FFP is a poor choice for that particular game, as I am sure you are well aware.

[hammAR]

Yes I am aware - Just as you are aware that there is not one solution to all possible scenarios....

I was going off of the heading Tactical/precision scope as well as the OP post which indicates that F-class was an afterthought or nice to have......:

The goal of the whole setup is really to learn distance shooting, and take some long range courses. Hopefully it will be a good do-all and I can use it for f-class making push for a little more magnification.

I will now return to the long grass.................