Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby xd ED on Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:02 pm

Holland&Holland wrote:Leveling the rifle has always been the toughest for me. What I have found is that the way I hold a particular rifle in the field and the way it sits straight in a vise can be two completely different things.


I level the rifle by using a short(aka 'torpedo') level across the bottom half of the scope rings, perpendicular to the bore of the rifle.
With the rifle level, I mount the scope loosely, and align the vertical line of the reticle with a known vertical reference. That could be anything from a plumb line across the room, to a pole, which I know to be plumb because I checked it, at 100 yards or so. Once that's done, I secure the scope, recheck, and permanently install a Vortex scope level, and center it's bubble.
The procedure can be modified if there are flat surfaces on the receiver, or scope that known to be square with the scope/ receiver.

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Last edited by xd ED on Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby xd ED on Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:14 pm

Holland&Holland wrote:
Ghost wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:Leveling the rifle has always been the toughest for me. What I have found is that the way I hold a particular rifle in the field and the way it sits straight in a vise can be two completely different things.


I have in the past hung a string line from the ceiling to confirm that I'm level with the world via the scope. The scope really should be square to the rifle though.


See I question that, because a barrel is round and gravity does not care what access the barrel is so is it not more important for the scope to be square to the word in the relation to the rotation of the barrel? I have always been told that a natural hold where one is not forcing a gun to move and conform to a specific position is the most accurate so if when I shoulder the weapon and the scope is square and the rifle comes up to my eye right then would that not be the best regardless if the rifle is slightly canted?


Not quite sure I understand your point, but when firing, the centerline of the scope should be precisely vertical (above) the centerline of the bore. If you're NPA cants the rifle, that seems like it's something that needs to be addressed with the ergonomics of the stock, or technique. Cant may or may not be an issue, depending of the height above bore of the scope or the distance of the shot. Increasing either will increase error if canted.
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby Holland&Holland on Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:44 pm

xd ED wrote:
Not quite sure I understand your point, but when firing, the centerline of the scope should be precisely vertical (above) the centerline of the bore. If you're NPA cants the rifle, that seems like it's something that needs to be addressed with the ergonomics of the stock, or technique. Cant may or may not be an issue, depending of the height above bore of the scope or the distance of the shot. Increasing either will increase error if canted.


Yea, I get that. My point is, this is something I have struggled with. I have the wheeler engineering kit. So I use the level on the base and the level on the scope and then after it is mounted and correct put it up to my shoulder and the damn thing is not quite straight. I usually end up tweaking it a bit at the range until I get it to feel just right without the levels. Maybe I am just built odd.
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby Erud on Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:57 pm

If you are shooting from a bipod or rest, then getting sight(s) level to rifle is probably the way to go. If you are shooting from positions, I'd say it is better to understand and work with your natural cant than try to force things level. As long as it's repeatable, you can figure out the results. It is very hard to shoot well if your position is forced.
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby Erud on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:09 pm

Holland&Holland wrote:
xd ED wrote:
Not quite sure I understand your point, but when firing, the centerline of the scope should be precisely vertical (above) the centerline of the bore. If you're NPA cants the rifle, that seems like it's something that needs to be addressed with the ergonomics of the stock, or technique. Cant may or may not be an issue, depending of the height above bore of the scope or the distance of the shot. Increasing either will increase error if canted.


Yea, I get that. My point is, this is something I have struggled with. I have the wheeler engineering kit. So I use the level on the base and the level on the scope and then after it is mounted and correct put it up to my shoulder and the damn thing is not quite straight. I usually end up tweaking it a bit at the range until I get it to feel just right without the levels. Maybe I am just built odd.


As to this point, people put an awful lot of faith in tiny plastic levels made by yet more (or maybe the same?) Malaysian 7-year olds. The chances of one of the levels, your base, or any number of other things not being quite right are pretty high. Even if all of that is right, your reticle may be canted in the scope, which is not at all uncommon. If that's the case, leveling on a plumb line, or neighbor's roof is no good, because your adjustments won't track true to the line of the reticle. The only real way to confirm level is to shoot a tall target at shorter range and confirm that elevation adjustments track straight up and down. If they don't, adjust the scope in the rings until they do, regardless of what the level says.

With match sights it is very easy to level sights ad know they are correct. I put my barreled action in the barrel vise and mount a digital level/bevel gauge on the left side of my rear sight, which I know is square and flat. Get it to dead -zero-, then clamp it down so it can't move anymore. put the front sight base on and put the same gauge on the left side of the front sight and adjust that to zero. Clamp it down, and it will track straight from 100 to 1000+ yards every single time.
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby xd ED on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:38 pm

Erud wrote:
Holland&Holland wrote:
xd ED wrote:
Not quite sure I understand your point, but when firing, the centerline of the scope should be precisely vertical (above) the centerline of the bore. If you're NPA cants the rifle, that seems like it's something that needs to be addressed with the ergonomics of the stock, or technique. Cant may or may not be an issue, depending of the height above bore of the scope or the distance of the shot. Increasing either will increase error if canted.


Yea, I get that. My point is, this is something I have struggled with. I have the wheeler engineering kit. So I use the level on the base and the level on the scope and then after it is mounted and correct put it up to my shoulder and the damn thing is not quite straight. I usually end up tweaking it a bit at the range until I get it to feel just right without the levels. Maybe I am just built odd.


As to this point, people put an awful lot of faith in tiny plastic levels made by yet more (or maybe the same?) Malaysian 7-year olds. The chances of one of the levels, your base, or any number of other things not being quite right are pretty high. Even if all of that is right, your reticle may be canted in the scope, which is not at all uncommon. If that's the case, leveling on a plumb line, or neighbor's roof is no good, because your adjustments won't track true to the line of the reticle. The only real way to confirm level is to shoot a tall target at shorter range and confirm that elevation adjustments track straight up and down. If they don't, adjust the scope in the rings until they do, regardless of what the level says.

With match sights it is very easy to level sights ad know they are correct. I put my barreled action in the barrel vise and mount a digital level/bevel gauge on the left side of my rear sight, which I know is square and flat. Get it to dead -zero-, then clamp it down so it can't move anymore. put the front sight base on and put the same gauge on the left side of the front sight and adjust that to zero. Clamp it down, and it will track straight from 100 to 1000+ yards every single time.


Good points, and thanks for the explanation of aligning a front sight. From my casual viewing of a front sight on a barrel, I was curios how that got done.
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby brad3579 on Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:36 am

Erud wrote:
As to this point, people put an awful lot of faith in tiny plastic levels made by yet more (or maybe the same?) Malaysian 7-year olds. The chances of one of the levels, your base, or any number of other things not being quite right are pretty high. Even if all of that is right, your reticle may be canted in the scope, which is not at all uncommon. If that's the case, leveling on a plumb line, or neighbor's roof is no good, because your adjustments won't track true to the line of the reticle. The only real way to confirm level is to shoot a tall target at shorter range and confirm that elevation adjustments track straight up and down. If they don't, adjust the scope in the rings until they do, regardless of what the level says.

With match sights it is very easy to level sights ad know they are correct. I put my barreled action in the barrel vise and mount a digital level/bevel gauge on the left side of my rear sight, which I know is square and flat. Get it to dead -zero-, then clamp it down so it can't move anymore. put the front sight base on and put the same gauge on the left side of the front sight and adjust that to zero. Clamp it down, and it will track straight from 100 to 1000+ yards every single time.

Planning to hopefully do this with a new prairie dog gun next week. I was thinking about stacking two targets and using a long level and a Sharpie to get my vertical line. Are you talking maybe 50 yards?
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby Erud on Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:34 am

Yeah 50 is good. Much farther than that and you really start needing a lot of paper. Doing it at short range also minimizes the effects of wind on the test.
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby brad3579 on Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:44 am

Erud wrote:Yeah 50 is good. Much farther than that and you really start needing a lot of paper. Doing it at short range also minimizes the effects of wind on the test.

Thanks Erik
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby goosed on Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:04 am

Not a single feeler gauge recommendation?

I knew I was special, but I didn't think I was the only one :hmm:
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby Erud on Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:37 am

goosed wrote:Not a single feeler gauge recommendation?

I knew I was special, but I didn't think I was the only one :hmm:


They work as good as anything, but you still need to make a lot of assumptions to believe the results.
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Re: Laser Bore Sight - LaserLyte?

Postby goosed on Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Erud wrote:
goosed wrote:They work as good as anything, but you still need to make a lot of assumptions to believe the results.


Agreed, feeler gauges are a quick and dirty solution. Holding the rifle in your shoulder pocket and leveling to the ground is still preferable, via tall target test or other method.

With the caveat, even tall target testing isn't perfect and should be done with the understanding that the amount of cant induced from your shoulder pocket is likely to change between different shooting position. So something done perfectly from prone may not translate into perfection while standing and vice versa.
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