Banned in Minnesota -- huh?

[Rags3000]

Glancing through a catalogue of guns for sale today, I saw that several revolvers made by an outfit called Heritage Arms (I think it was) can't be sold in Minnesota, among several other states, such as Illinois and South Carolina. This is definitely not one of those ooga-booga "assault weapons" bans, because most every other form of handgun in the catalogue is NOT banned in the People's Republic of Minnesota. The catalogue has all the common forms of revolvers and automatics, plus some that that have been tarted up to look like they're full auto.

So, what's going on here -- is it the company? The guns are just .22 revolvers.

[mnglocker]

It's the state's SNS laws.

[Rags3000]

SNS means Saturday Night Specials? I did notice they were pretty cheap, mostly in the $130 range. But then, how come all that Hi Point crap, er, finely made products, are legal?

And what makes a gun a SNS, the metals used? The price?

Also, you just gotta love the idea that a guy decides on Saturday evening, about 5 o'clock, that he's gonna go out and take a gun with him that he bought for cheap -- by sitting down and ordering it from a catalogue, then arranging to have it sent to an FFL . . . . only to find he can't get it before Sunday morning.

Another crime averted by Minnesota's quick-thinking legislators!

[DeanC]

[White Horseradish]

And what makes a gun a SNS, the metals used? The price?

624.712
Subd. 4.Saturday night special pistol.

"Saturday night special pistol" means a pistol other than an antique firearm or a pistol for which the propelling force is carbon dioxide, air or other vapor, or children's pop guns or toys, having a frame, barrel, cylinder, slide or breechblock:

(1) of any material having a melting point (liquidus) of less than 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, or

(2) of any material having an ultimate tensile strength of less than 55,000 pounds per square inch, or

(3) of any powdered metal having a density of less than 7.5 grams per cubic centimeter.

Melting point is likely the main reason. Hi-Points obviously are made of a different alloy.

[monschman]

And what makes a gun a SNS, the metals used? The price?

624.712
Subd. 4.Saturday night special pistol.

"Saturday night special pistol" means a pistol other than an antique firearm or a pistol for which the propelling force is carbon dioxide, air or other vapor, or children's pop guns or toys, having a frame, barrel, cylinder, slide or breechblock:

(1) of any material having a melting point (liquidus) of less than 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, or

(2) of any material having an ultimate tensile strength of less than 55,000 pounds per square inch, or

(3) of any powdered metal having a density of less than 7.5 grams per cubic centimeter.

i have a huge problem, it is a step in preventing the person who cannot afford anything but a "SNS" the right to use a firearm to defend him/herself and their families. heck what we are being told here is the fine firearms carried by the majority of our law enforcement and also by yours truly both on and off duty are in fact saturday night specials...............whatever, whoever wrote this law needs a good dose of education. Now saying that there are some piles out there that should never have made it to market but they did so is it not a pesons own right to buy a raven if that is what they can, until purchasing something more suitable becomes a reality for them.

[Widge]

what we are being told here is the fine firearms carried by the majority of our law enforcement and also by yours truly both on and off duty are in fact saturday night specials

If you are referring to Glock pistols, they do not fall within the definition of SNS. The polymer they are constructed from does not form liquidus at less than 1000 degrees (and even if they did I wouldn't care, I carry a Sig or a CZ ).

It was covered in another thread a while back.

[jgalt]

what we are being told here is the fine firearms carried by the majority of our law enforcement and also by yours truly both on and off duty are in fact saturday night specials

If you are referring to Glock pistols, they do not fall within the definition of SNS. The polymer they are constructed from does not form liquidus at less than 1000 degrees (and even if they did I wouldn't care, I carry a Sig or a CZ ).

It was covered in another thread a while back.

I found it touched on in this thread: http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5935&p=60750&hilit=liquidus#p60750

I also found a more detailed explanation from back in 2007 on "the other site" (I'll edit out the names of the current member here who is being quoted, as well as leaving out the name of the person who made the post, who is also a current member here. I'll be happy to put the names back in if either wants to claim credit for them...):

Posted by ****

kimberman wrote:
I was told by Norm Jensvold, the 1974 lobbyest for gun owners, that they had a professional PhD metallurgist come up with the definition of SNS.
The legal wording is very precise.

(a) of any material having a melting point (liquidus) of
less than 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, or

(b) of any material having an ultimate tensile strength of
less than 55,000 pounds per square inch, or

(c) of any powdered metal having a density of less than 7.5
grams per cubic centimeter.

For example, in paragraph(a), the key word is "liquidus." The component passes even if it softens, deforms, turns to putty, etc. It fails only if it is completely liquified at the stated temperature. The legal test is not whether the gun is ruined. The polymer in Glocks is not a liquid at 1000 degrees.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

**** wrote:
Lorcin / Bryco / Jennings /Raven / Cobra are what are called POT METAL GUNS - the entire gun will melt at well under 1000 F

A Glock has componenets that WILL not melt at that temp....... And have a tensile strength well over 55,000 psi.......

[monschman]

ok i will stand corrected on the polymer comment but i still have major issues with keeping firearms out of the reach of people with lower income who may not be able to afford better. before the shatwagon is unloaded on me, sure someone could save up but speaking from experience, my first handgun was a jennings 22, i got it after being mugged in the chicago lightrail (or el or whatever they call it there). At the time it was what i could afford and i took my PTC class with it. Needless to say i improved my personal situation and was able to get a more suitable carry gun, but i still say that at the time the best gun for me was that jennings 22. Saying all this i will encourage someone to get the best gun suited for the task at hand that they can afford then, dont go buying a jennings just because its cheap, if it is what you can afford, great, but if you can swing the extra get something more suitable

[mnglocker]

ok i will stand corrected on the polymer comment but i still have major issues with keeping firearms out of the reach of people with lower income who may not be able to afford better. before the shatwagon is unloaded on me, sure someone could save up but speaking from experience, my first handgun was a jennings 22, i got it after being mugged in the chicago lightrail (or el or whatever they call it there). At the time it was what i could afford and i took my PTC class with it. Needless to say i improved my personal situation and was able to get a more suitable carry gun, but i still say that at the time the best gun for me was that jennings 22. Saying all this i will encourage someone to get the best gun suited for the task at hand that they can afford then, dont go buying a jennings just because its cheap, if it is what you can afford, great, but if you can swing the extra get something more suitable

I agree whole heartedly. SNS laws are just laws againt poor people defending themselfs'. It's not like it's keeping gang bangers from getting guns.

[tacticalninja32]

Gang bangers don't want one anyways, they want something more flashy like a nickel plated what ever and glue craft rubies in the engraving to add to the bling bling, I personally don't care for those SNS cause they seemed like a nightmare to breakdown for maintnance

[Seismic Sam]

As someone with a Bachelor of Science degree in Organic chemistry, I wish to call BS about the statement concerning Glock pistols and the 1,000 F degree test.

NO POLYMER in existence today can withstand 1,000 F. The closest candidates are polyimides, which are a carbon-nitrogen-carbon backbone instead of a normal all carbon backbone, and they can withstand about 700 F. The polymer Glocks are made out of is a variant of nylon, and I doubt it could withstand much more than 400 or 500 degrees F. Put a Glock in a 1,000 muffle furnace, and what you will get out are steel parts and some lumps of carbon. That's it.

As far as SNS's themselves, I am against them, for the same reason that I am against every other POS gun that has ever been made. Reason: They're weak, and can blow up in your face if you put +P ammo through them or hot handloads, and all they really accomplish is to give the anti-gun lobby a VALID talking point against the 2nd Amendment. No different than Firestone 500 tires, or Pinto gas tanks, or any other poorly designed and dangerous product out there today.

As far as the theoretical arguement that some unarmed poor impoverished schmuck should have access to such a gun rather than nothing, I'm not buying that either. If you really want a gun, you can get a high point for a few more bucks, and for every unarmed poverty victim there are 10 gang bangers who will want to buy a SNS because that makes them disposable after they blow away some innocent citizen sitting on their front porch during a gang shoot-out.

[DeanC]

NO POLYMER in existence today can withstand 1,000 F.

This is true

Put a Glock in a 1,000 muffle furnace, and what you will get out are steel parts and some lumps of carbon. That's it.

Yup, not a liquidus as we discussed here one day on a thread that no longer exists.

[shadeslanding]

As someone with a Bachelor of Science degree in Organic chemistry, I wish to call BS about the statement concerning Glock pistols and the 1,000 F degree test.

NO POLYMER in existence today can withstand 1,000 F. The closest candidates are polyimides, which are a carbon-nitrogen-carbon backbone instead of a normal all carbon backbone, and they can withstand about 700 F. The polymer Glocks are made out of is a variant of nylon, and I doubt it could withstand much more than 400 or 500 degrees F. Put a Glock in a 1,000 muffle furnace, and what you will get out are steel parts and some lumps of carbon. That's it.

As far as SNS's themselves, I am against them, for the same reason that I am against every other POS gun that has ever been made. Reason: They're weak, and can blow up in your face if you put +P ammo through them or hot handloads, and all they really accomplish is to give the anti-gun lobby a VALID talking point against the 2nd Amendment. No different than Firestone 500 tires, or Pinto gas tanks, or any other poorly designed and dangerous product out there today.

As far as the theoretical arguement that some unarmed poor impoverished schmuck should have access to such a gun rather than nothing, I'm not buying that either. If you really want a gun, you can get a high point for a few more bucks, and for every unarmed poverty victim there are 10 gang bangers who will want to buy a SNS because that makes them disposable after they blow away some innocent citizen sitting on their front porch during a gang shoot-out.

Do not thermosetting polymers decompose rather than melt at high temperatures?

GS

[DeanC]

Do not thermosetting polymers decompose rather than melt at high temperatures?

Precisely.