Banned in Minnesota -- huh?

[Holland&Holland]

Well, having started this topic, I feel like a great-grandfather at the head of a very large table at a family reuinion. How kind of you all to come.

Anyway, I agree that it is a good thing to have an FDA to watch over drugs, foods, and so on, and an FAA to ensure standards in aircraft and pilot training and so on. To that extent, I skew somewhat not-libertarian. However, as we all know, any law can and will be used against you. The FAA has excesses, the DNR sometimes oversteps its bounds, the police do sometimes get carried away -- not often, not usually, but it can happen.

HOWEVER: In the case of these revolvers, I seriously doubt that the real intent of the law was consumer protection. No, face it, some creepy Minnesota version of Chuck Schumer was grandstanding for the press about "getting those Saturday Night Specials off the streets." Which sounded great until some clerk in the creep's office pointed out that they'd have to be specific about what constituted a SNS, and the Schumer-wannabe was alarmed, because he had been assuming that nobody would ever ask for any specifics and that the guns were probably sold at the end of a counter in the gun store and clearly marked "Saturday Night Specials -- cheap gats fer when U git drunk." So he enlisted some engineer to draw up specs that he doesn't understand himself.

And that is how we get this peculiar law. I doubt that even a poorly made .22 LR revolver is going to blow anybody's hand off.

Well stated Sir.

[Ironbear]

Good steel is not that expensive. I think what they were trying to do is make it difficult to use sh!tty materials in the manufacture of firearms. On that, I can't say I mind that.

I'm going to disagree with you in a nuanced sort of way!

"Pot Metal" is some undefined alloy composed of soft, low melting-temperature metals (Copper, Zinc, Tin, Lead, etc.). You are correct. Steel is not that expensive, and is likely less expensive than pot metal. In manufactured goods, actual material costs are typically a small portion of final cost. The manufacturing costs are what tend to dominate. Machining quality steel takes good equipment. Machining soft metals can be done with cheap gear, and your tooling lasts forever. Permanent-mold casting, of steel, takes high-grade (ie. expensive) tooling; and investment casting, of steel, takes a decent high-temperature foundry. OTOH. Die-casting pot metal, is a well-established, cheap, high-volume, mass-production method.

Glock and others have shown us that you can include low-temperature, moldable, low-tensile strength materials; and through careful material selection and good design, make a high-quality firearm. It is reasonable to assume that with similar bother, the same could be done with pot metal (but why? ). Conversely, anyone can take high-quality material, and good machining practices and design an entirely unsafe and unreliable firearm. The point being, that low-melting temperature, low-tensile materials don't necessarily make a poor firearm; and high grade material don't necessarily make a good one.

So, from my perspective, it seems, not like a war on crappy, low-grade materials; but on high-volume, low-cost production methods. Specifically, it seems to be attempting to exclude die-casting and powered metal molding.

(1) of any material having a melting point (liquidus) of less than 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, or

(2) of any material having an ultimate tensile strength of less than 55,000 pounds per square inch, or

(3) of any powdered metal having a density of less than 7.5 grams per cubic centimeter.

*I am not really sure how Glock and Company get around number (2), but I think they all start with metal pieces and overmold the polymer, so perhaps the polymer is not really considered the "frame".

[EJSG19]

Good steel is not that expensive. I think what they were trying to do is make it difficult to use sh!tty materials in the manufacture of firearms. On that, I can't say I mind that.

I'm going to disagree with you in a nuanced sort of way!

...

So, from my perspective, it seems, not like a war on crappy, low-grade materials; but on high-volume, low-cost production methods. Specifically, it seems to be attempting to exclude die-casting and powered metal molding.

...

There is an argument I have no problem buying. Makes sense to me. Whichever is the case (and I think your version is more likely), the key is a gun that is safe and reliable is just fine (no matter what its made of). If it isn't, then I'd just as soon not have it available on the market. When its all said and done, I would like this country to hold gun maker's to the same standards as some other American or foreign-made products which can have a life-altering affect on people, regarding whether they work properly or not.

Just to be clear, if Jennings or whoever else sells a gun and it proves to be safe and reliable. Then great. I don't care what the price tag says. Conversely if STI or Nighthawk sells a high dollar 1911 that isn't safe and reliable, then I have the same problem with that. (These are just for example. So fan's of either company need not be offended.) Too many guns are sold which don't work right out of the box.

I don't really care if somebody's laptop has glitches, or their floor mop falls apart. Those things don't involve a tool which is commonly accepted to be capable of lethal force. Cars, planes, guns, extension ladders, etc. all have a more likely chance of accidentally hurting someone if it doesn't work the way its expected to.

[1911fan]

Glock and others get around the tensil strength and melting point part by having the steel insert declared the frame. Notice where the serial number is. It's on steel visible thru a little "window" in the overmolded grip/plastic.

My biggest problem with the SNS laws are the racial implications under which they were written. They were written to keep "uppity N-word" 's from getting a gun during the civil rights movement. Plain and simple 1964-1969 the prospect of out and out race warfare in the south scared the bejeezis out of most of white America. It had nothing to do with crime or safety. It was keep cheap guns out of urban black hands. Period

[westberg]

Glock and others get around the tensil strength and melting point part by having the steel insert declared the frame. Notice where the serial number is. It's on steel visible thru a little "window" in the overmolded grip/plastic.

My biggest problem with the SNS laws are the racial implications under which they were written. They were written to keep "uppity N-word" 's from getting a gun during the civil rights movement. Plain and simple 1964-1969 the prospect of out and out race warfare in the south scared the bejeezis out of most of white America. t

I thought this was about Minnesota law?

[1911fan]

It was passed on the heels of national legislation. It was racially motivated. It was the same time carrying without a license was made a crime.

[westberg]

It was passed on the heels of national legislation. It was racially motivated. It was the same time carrying without a license was made a crime.

Not trying to be argumentative but wasn't that in the seventies.

[1911fan]

Ron no offense taken at all

I believe they were both mid to late sixties events here. I do know that in much of the country they were tied very closely together as a unmentioned response to Civil Rights. The pretext might have been drug crime but the true intent was still racial even here. I remeber reading an interview with on of the old guard Minnesota pols saying something like " Let them be equal, just as long as I have a gun to stay more equal". That's not a direct quote and they were more subtle than that but that was the intent of the statement. It might have been Harold levander but it was a Minn old time politician.

[macphisto]

Since it seems unlikely that another thread will come along anytime soon in which this is more apropos...

[Ramoel]

Since it seems unlikely that another thread will come along anytime soon in which this is more apropos...

That was so funny I almost choked! Good one Mac!

[Pat]

That's an "Oh, poo" moment, if there ever was one.

[JustMe]

I had read that the description 'Saturday Night Special' is a combination of the descriptions 'Suicide Special' (small, cheap handguns allegedly used by persons to kill themselves) and 'Niggertown Saturday Night' (a term used for alleged weekend times in which blacks socialized and got into fights). Both descriptors are pejoratives, but the SNS's I have seen (in movie and one TV series episode) appeared to be well made and moderately priced Smith and Wesson J frame revolvers.

[1911fan]

That's because most Hollywood are dumb as rocks. There were a great many very cheap handguns coming in as much of Europe got their industrial base back on track after WW2. I remember seeing adds in some magazines for sub ten dollar pistols. They were competing with surplus arms being dumped as well. One could buy USGI 1911s for under twenty and victory S&Ws for about fifteen.

[hammAR]

One could buy USGI 1911s for under twenty and victory S&Ws for about fifteen.

..yep, and they would be delivered buy the US Postal Service to your door, bought a pair when I was.....well nevermind they got lost in the shuffle.........