$75.00 / 2 hr class

[mrokern]

The law says what must be taught, and until that changes, I'm going to teach it.

-Mark

Just what does the law spell out that must be covered.

Subd. 2a. Training in the safe use of a pistol. (a) An applicant must present evidence that
the applicant received training in the safe use of a pistol within one year of the date of an original
or renewal application. Training may be demonstrated by:
(1) employment as a peace officer in the state of Minnesota within the past year; or
(2) completion of a firearms safety or training course providing basic training in the safe use
of a pistol and conducted by a certified instructor.
(b) Basic training must include:
(1) instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use;
(2) successful completion of an actual shooting qualification exercise; and
(3) instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including
self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force.

That is the law. We may not agree with it, but it is Minnesota law.

(3) alone can take over 2 hours.

Add in (1), plus the practical carry discussion and questions that get spawned...

-Mark

[1911fan]

I gotta believe that this can be summed up very clearly in just a few sentences.

instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including
self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force.

[justaguy]

I gotta believe that this can be summed up very clearly in just a few sentences.

instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including
self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force.

So much so that other states dont even have a class, or a permit.

(Sorry for publicly agreeing with you 1911fan I'll keep it to a minimum.)

[justaguy]

I think most would not want people running around with permits that only had a 2 hr class.... Looks like it's just someone trying to make a FAST BUCK, AGAIN!

I think when you turn 18 you should be able to carry any where and every where. Second Amendment Rights shouldn't end when I get on a plane, enter a school, court house or daycare. So I think a two hour class is about 2 and half hours to long.

I actually agree with you on that part.....

But it doesn't magically appear at age 18 either....

You are right. Montana's age of 14 is even better. There isn't anything "magical" about Rights.

[1911fan]

You may carry a weapon everywhere but here, (list) unless (exceptions.) Explain the sign and consequences.

You may not carry in excess of .04BAC,

If you and/or another are in immediate fear of irreparable harm or worse and you have no other option to de-escalate the situation, you may use a firearm to prevent that GBH/D

If you shoot, call marc. then sit down, tell the arriving cops , "I was/am scared and shook up, I will talk only after my attorney lets me. "

[farmerj]

If you shoot, call marc. then sit down, tell the arriving cops , "I was/am scared and shook up, I will talk only after my attorney lets me. "

You said too much....fixed it....

[cobb]

(b) Basic training must include:
(1) instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use;
(2) successful completion of an actual shooting qualification exercise; and
(3) instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including
self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force.

I think I could cover that in two hours.

But my classroom alone is about 6 hours, sometimes a bit more, depending on the type of people in the class. So covering the basics in 2 hours or going into detail and giving the information that I feel is needed, that is the difference of the 4 extra hours in my class.

[Erik_Pakieser]

I won't pass judgment on this particular course, however I will admit my own class is a solid 8 hours, including breaks.

Students get what they pay for. If they choose to take a short class, then they deserve what they get. I've said before, and will say again - students should check out their instructor's experience and credentials and ask about post-class support. This has been covered to death elsewhere.

I'm not a fan of the government licensing my right to carry, nor administratively telling me what has to be in my classes, but that is the situation we have in MN. If that changes, I'll be among the first to celebrate. But I'll still offer a permit-to-carry class, even if it's not required, and I am 100% confident those who take it will benefit.

[justaguy]

I won't pass judgment on this particular course, however I will admit my own class is a solid 8 hours, including breaks.

Students get what they pay for. If they choose to take a short class, then they deserve what they get. I've said before, and will say again - students should check out their instructor's experience and credentials and ask about post-class support. This has been covered to death elsewhere.

I'm not a fan of the government licensing my right to carry, nor administratively telling me what has to be in my classes, but that is the situation we have in MN. If that changes, I'll be among the first to celebrate. But I'll still offer a permit-to-carry class, even if it's not required, and I am 100% confident those who take it will benefit.

I don't want to start a argument but the states that do nothing don't seem to have problems, and you can get the same information from a book in less time and money. Just another way of looking at it.

Take the cheapest class possible and do some free research or buy a book and you are money ahead.

[JJ]

I won't pass judgment on this particular course, however I will admit my own class is a solid 8 hours, including breaks.

Students get what they pay for. If they choose to take a short class, then they deserve what they get. I've said before, and will say again - students should check out their instructor's experience and credentials and ask about post-class support. This has been covered to death elsewhere.

I'm not a fan of the government licensing my right to carry, nor administratively telling me what has to be in my classes, but that is the situation we have in MN. If that changes, I'll be among the first to celebrate. But I'll still offer a permit-to-carry class, even if it's not required, and I am 100% confident those who take it will benefit.

I don't want to start a argument but the states that do nothing don't seem to have problems, and you can get the same information from a book in less time and money. Just another way of looking at it.

Take the cheapest class possible and do some free research or buy a book and you are money ahead.

While I'm not sure taking the cheapest class possible is the best solution, I certainly don't see the need for 8 hrs for a PTC class There is only so much info to go over. Now if I was attending a PTC introductory/basic handgun class then I could actually see the need for that amount of time.

If it takes 8 hours to cover the legalities of MN's PTC its gotta be like watching 8 hours of "Bueller, Bueller, Bueller"

[1911fan]

I won't pass judgment on this particular course, however I will admit my own class is a solid 8 hours, including breaks.

Students get what they pay for. If they choose to take a short class, then they deserve what they get. I've said before, and will say again - students should check out their instructor's experience and credentials and ask about post-class support. This has been covered to death elsewhere.

I'm not a fan of the government licensing my right to carry, nor administratively telling me what has to be in my classes, but that is the situation we have in MN. If that changes, I'll be among the first to celebrate. But I'll still offer a permit-to-carry class, even if it's not required, and I am 100% confident those who take it will benefit.

I don't want to start a argument but the states that do nothing don't seem to have problems, and you can get the same information from a book in less time and money. Just another way of looking at it.

Take the cheapest class possible and do some free research or buy a book and you are money ahead.

While I'm not sure taking the cheapest class possible is the best solution, I certainly don't see the need for 8 hrs for a PTC class There is only so much info to go over. Now if I was attending a PTC introductory/basic handgun class then I could actually see the need for that amount of time.

If it takes 8 hours to cover the legalities of MN's PTC its gotta be like watching 8 hours of "Bueller, Bueller, Bueller"

Ding!!

[Rem700]

Regarding 1-2 I think alot of people could be passed in as little as 5rds, Perhaps an exemption for those able to produce a ranking in IDPA/USPSA or anyother competive handgun shooting sport includeing Hutches steel shoots.

[gtc]

As a fellow Instructor I can see both points of view. Before I started teaching I sat in on many, many classes, 2 of which were at Bills Gun shop. Im sorry, but the crew they had were idiots. I felt as if I spent more time teaching the class, then they did, and this was prior to me applying for the BCA Blessing. Personally my classes take on average 4 hours. When i cover legal aspects I also hand out the 10 page copy of the statutes, as this makes me feel better that if I didnt elaborate on something atleast they can go back and decypher it themselfs. Aside from Class I offer my cell phone number to all students and invite them to call if they have any questions, as I fully understand just as you drive out of the parking lot, is when you remember that 1 question you need to know.

I do think that 2 hours is pushing it, but I can honestly say that I have done a class of 5 current Military guys in 2 hours and 15 minutes- minus the range time. all 5 were MP's and had studied up on MN law pror to class, no need to re-invent the wheel.

[phorvick]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the general thrust of this topic. It is my opinion that yes, of course, it is possible to present a class in 2+ hours. Given the right people attending, I can see that happening. I think the crux of the issue is not whether it is possible, but whether instructors would advertise and promote a class that is 2+hrs for all comers. That...I opine....is difficult if not impossible.

I agree we do not need to bore folks that already are knowledgable; we do not need to see everyone shoot X number of shots;...but, to suggest that a normal class can be just 2+ hours for all attendees ....well...it seems to be a hard task to accomplish well. However, in all honesty, and I have sat in on many many classes from a gaggle of instructors in Minnesota, I believe it is the opposite that is more problematic....and that is overkill on elementary basic concepts.

I have sat through many classes by good meaning people that take about an hour or two to literally read law related items. They might have spent an hour or more on legal issues, but certainly not quality time (which I define as giving people a decent checklist of the highpoints of the law; you are not going to "educate" much even in 2-3-4-5 hours, but you can alert and make folks aware that there is a lot more to carrying then buying a gun and a holster.) But unless I have sat through the class, I don't think it is fair of me to pontificate or be judgmental. Bottom line. The class needs to be long enough to cover what either you told the State you would cover, or what your certifying agency requires. If that is done, whether 2 hours or 12 hours, then they are doing what is required. If there are those that don't like that, then work to change the law; oh, I won't be part of that work group.

[1911fan]

For my self, and for several others I have helped go thru the system, I can not say I can find a single reason for a well done presentation to last more than two hours, Every class I have been thru has an awful lot of filler. Lots of stuff added in because its "important" but not required by law. The law is simple, Its concise, there is no reason to expand it out to fill 4 to 8 hours, There is no need, all this does is reduce the number of people who are willing to sacrifice that whole day to get their permit. I talk to people all the time, who tell me, I WANT my permit, but $150 dollars for a 6 hour class is just too much time, With some classes requiring a couple boxes of ammo and then the $100 to the County, all of a sudden your talking $300 bills to people who want the security, but just don't want to part with that much time and effort.

There are a lot of people who are on the edge over this. They want to be legal, they are feeling at times, insecure, and would love the permit, but its become too much of a hassle. I had an hour long conversation with a man who used to get a permit from the HC sheriffs office, partly because he was a crony, and partly because of his work, and he said it would cost him $10 bucks a year, now its $100, and the class and all that, he just does not want to deal with the headache.

IF we want the permit system to work, we need to get more people carrying permits, with the usual situation that the more people who bother to carry, they will not offend, and as that number climbs its more and more obvious that even less restrictions are needed.

When I read statements that " I teach a x hour course because I feel I have to give the most for the money, and I have make sure all the x's and o's are there" I think cut the class to 2 hours, charge half as much, and work at getting your sermon down to the least possible words.

IF you go to church, that Pastor has only a limited time (about 23 minutes) to get out the word, if he goes over, attendance goes down, If he gets it down in 11 minutes, people feel they didn't get their money's worth. and attendance goes down.

The law is simple as I wrote before, there are only a few main points, get them across, and thats it. really, its not hard.