John Lott Gets It Right Again - from Fox news

Gun related chat that doesn't fit in another forum

Re: John Lott Gets It Right Again - from Fox news

Postby ttousi on Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:41 pm

Don't want to hear about your winky :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

sorry couldn't resist :roll:

Valid point..............terrorists will probably plan more carefully and remove security personnel as part of the act. An armed populace will cause them to have an unknown in their attack plan, and can only help us.

Random acts of violence by nutjobs will continue to be just that.........random. Personally I think an armed populace is about the only way to discourage and prevent the random acts.
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Re: John Lott Gets It Right Again - from Fox news

Postby hammAR on Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:54 pm

Breaking news: Well, we need to add churches to the mall, school list too:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071209/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings
2 dead in Colo. Church shootings 65 miles apart.

ARVADA, Colo. - A gunman killed two staff members at a missionary training center early Sunday after being told he couldn't spend the night, and about 12 hours later four people were shot at a busy megachurch in Colorado Springs.


We just need to close all churches, fast food restaurants, convenience stores, malls, schools, and just sit back and wait........ :twisted:

....and I will give you a winky, you twinky............... :P :P
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Re: John Lott Gets It Right Again - from Fox news

Postby e5usmc on Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:54 pm

hammAR wrote:ARVADA, Colo. - A gunman killed two staff members at a missionary training center early Sunday after being told he couldn't spend the night, and about 12 hours later four people were shot at a busy megachurch in Colorado Springs.


Theres a good quote in the Strib story on this about the armed church security guard (as some of us are here, either officially or unofficially) - not a cop, saving a lot of lives by responding the way he did...

http://www.startribune.com/nation/12293016.html

2 killed at missionary center in Colo.; in separate attack at church, gunman and victim die

A gunman killed two staff members at a missionary training center near Denver early Sunday after being told he couldn't spend the night. About 12 hours later, a gunman fatally shot a person at a megachurch in Colorado Springs before a guard killed him, police said.

The gunman at the New Life Church was shot and killed by a church security guard after entering the church's main foyer with high-powered rifle shortly before 1 p.m. and opening fire, Colorado Springs Police Chief Richard Myers said.

It was not immediately known whether the Colorado Springs shooting was related to the crime in Arvada, a Denver suburb about 65 miles to the north. Authorities in Arvada said no one had been captured in the shootings there.

A church member died of wounds inflicted by the gunman, Senior Pastor Brady Boyd said. At least two others were shot and wounded at the church, where hundreds of people were milling about and parents were picking up their children from the nursery.

It was not immediately known whether the shootings were related, but Arvada authorities said they were sharing information with Colorado Springs investigators. The mission training program has a small office at the church's World Prayer Center on the New Life campus.

The church's 11 a.m. service had recently ended, and hundreds of people were milling about when the gunman opened fire. Nearby were parents picking up their children from the nursery.

Police arrived to find that the gunman had been killed by a member of the church's armed security staff, Myers said.

"There was a courageous staff member who probably saved many lives here today," Myers said.


Gov. Bill Ritter ordered state authorities to help investigate. The FBI and the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives were assisting, and officers combed the church campus looking for suspicious devices.

The others injured by the church gunman were taken to Penrose Community Hospital in Colorado Springs, said hospital spokeswoman Amy Sufak.

New Life was founded by the Rev. Ted Haggard, who was fired last year after a former male prostitute alleged he had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with him. Haggard, then the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, admitted committing undisclosed "sexual immorality."

The New Life church is one of Colorado's largest with about 10,000 members.

About 7,000 people were on the campus at the time of the shooting, Boyd said. Security at the church had been beefed up after the early morning shootings in Arvada, he said.

The first shooting happened at about 12:30 a.m. at the Youth With a Mission center in Arvada, a Denver suburb, police spokeswoman Susan Medina said.

A man and a woman were killed and two men were wounded, Medina said. All four were staff members of the center, said Paul Filidis, a Colorado Springs-based spokesman with Youth With a Mission.

Arvada Police Chief Don Wick said the suspect spent several minutes speaking with people inside the dorm. Peter Warren, director of Youth With a Mission Denver, said the man asked whether he could spend the night. Several youths called on Tiffany Johnson, the center's director of hospitality.

"The director of hospitality was called. That's when he opened fire," Warren said. Johnson, 26, was killed.

Warren said he didn't know whether any of the students or staff knew the gunman. "We don't know why" he came to the dormitory, Warren said.

Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap, who left on foot. He may have glasses or a beard.

Police with dogs searched the area through the night, and residents of nearby homes were notified by reverse 911 to be on the lookout. Medina said residents were asked to look out their windows for any tracks left in the snow during the night. About 4 inches of snow had fallen in the area in the past day.

In addition to Johnson, killed in Arvada was Philip Crouse, 23. Youth With a Mission said Johnson was from Minnesota and Crouse was from Alaska.

The missionary center identified the wounded as Dan Griebenow, 24, of South Dakota, and Charlie Branch, 22, whose hometown wasn't immediately known. One of the men was in critical condition, and the other was stable, police said.

About 45 people were evacuated from the Youth with a Mission dormitory and moved to an undisclosed location.

The missionary center is on the grounds of the Faith Bible Chapel. Cheril Morrison, wife of chapel pastor George Morrison, said Crouse had just hung up Christmas lights at her home and that Johnson was "an amazingly beautiful person."

Mimi Martin, who lives near the center, said she received the warning call at about 9 a.m. warning neighbors to keep their doors and windows locked.

"Why would anybody want to hurt those kids?" Martin said.

Darv Smith, director of a Youth With a Mission center in Boulder, said people ranging from their late teens to their 70s undergo a 12-week course that prepares them to be missionaries. He said the center trains about 300 people a year.

Filidis said staffers are usually former missionaries themselves and that the "mercy ministries" performed by trainees include orphanage work. He said he didn't know where the group being trained in Arvada was going to be sent.

Youth With a Mission was started in 1960 and now has 1,100 locations with 16,000 full-time staff, Smith said. The Arvada center was founded in 1984.
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Re: John Lott Gets It Right Again - from Fox news

Postby GregM on Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:42 am

I agree: Armed civilians are a good and necessary response --- both to random nutcase shootings and terrorist attacks. And if I am ever in a position to use my weapon (or whatever it takes) to save innocent lives, I hope and pray that I will have to guts to do the right thing. Never having been under fire, I can't make any firm predictions ...
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