reputable gunsmiths

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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby ijosef on Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:26 pm

RAGGED wrote:
Sigfan220 wrote:I have had the bulk of my work done at Joe's in St Paul. It's been a while so the smith's name escapes me. He has done rifle and shotgun work everything turned out great.



Bob Everson is a F******* hack and Joes can go to hell, biggest mistake of my life was not dragging their sorry asses into court for wrecking my 1937 Browning 16 ga Auto :x

Please someone stick up for this ******* so I can post LOTS of great pics

Bob Everson is a skilled and competent gunsmith. You're just upset because he couldn't turn your rusty old POS into a brand new gun for less than a hundred bucks. :P
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby RAGGED on Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:23 pm

ijosef wrote:Bob Everson is a skilled and competent gunsmith. You're just upset because he couldn't turn your rusty old POS into a brand new gun for less than a hundred bucks. :P




O dear fiend, how O so wrong you are. First let me say the work you are about to see was absolutely not asked for, this mint Browning has been in my family since new and it was cherry, it was in ONLY to have the chamber back bored a bit in hopes that it would work better with modern plastic shells, an operation recommended to me by Joes and Bob himself. I was hesitant but was assured it was a simple ordeal that would never be noticeable. I even called the gunshop and spoke directly to Bob on at least 2 occasions to absolutely confirm that the receiver, specifically the ejection port would not be modified in any way whatsoever, imagine my shock when I got it back and found this. Apparently Bob took it upon himself to try and make it eject better, something that was NEVER mentioned, he did the one thing to it I specifically told him not too, and he did an absolutely piss poor job doing it, I could do a better job with one hand tied behind my back.

So I give you the top notch unwanted work of Pro Gunsmith Bob Everson @ Joes Sporting Goods

(sorry for the large pics, I felt that was the only way to see the detail of this hack work)

Image



look at that bur! (it did in fact cut me) Quality Grade A+ work there! A real craftsmen, I love how it cuts right into the etching!


Image

No its not your eyes, that right side of the port really is THAT jagged, and if you look close at the upper right corner you can see it dips up past the top line of the port, OOPSY!

Image

Another beautiful shot of this suburb work by Bob Everson, keep in mind I called Joes 3 times to tell them do not touch the receiver, only lengthen the bore, twice I talked directly to Bob. I even explained why I did not want it touched. I’m left thinking he might have a slight case of Alzheimer’s as I can not understand how it possibly happened in light of our detailed conversations.




So I beg Bob to come and defend this work, if anyone is chummy with the boys at Joes by all means tell them! I would still love for Joes to stand up and make this right by sending it to a competent smith to have it fixed. There was also other issues with this visit but I’ll leave that out of this convo for now because this part of it specifically pertains to Bob and the lack of skill and communication.

And Bob, Doug, let it be known I get around ALLOT at the local ranges, in fact the banner at FLSC makes a GREAT segue into this tale(I shoot there 2-3 times a week). I make my opinions of your operation known as much as I can and I assure you in this case it would have been FAR better for your bottom line to have done the right thing. More than a few people that know the story have vowed never to buy another firearm from you, and like me some were buying 5+ rifles a year from you, in fact the year this happened I had bought no less than 6 rifles and 2 pistols from you. Since this happened that number is 0 and same goes for the rest of my large sporting family, a local St Paul family that had been buying from you almost exclusively for 30+ years.

And to you my good buddy Doug the gunshop manager, even if you had to spend $1000 to undo the mess Bob created you would have made that back on three rifles. I suspect a VERY conservative estimate would be 20 rifle sales lost thus far because of this, maybe many more, and wouldn't you know I happened to be talking to a friend yesterday at Horse & Hunt and you will not be selling the new Berretta shotgun and Remington 700 Custom he and his father had planned on buying from you, they will be taking their business to someone with some morals.
Last edited by RAGGED on Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby Snowgun on Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:47 pm

Holy, I could have done a better job with a dremel in my left hand.

(FYI, to see the pics better right click on the pictures and "view Image", some of the picture gets cropped in the thread view. )
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby RAGGED on Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:38 pm

Snowgun wrote:Holy, I could have done a better job with a dremel in my left hand.

(FYI, to see the pics better right click on the pictures and "view Image", some of the picture gets cropped in the thread view. )



I agree, I still can’t believe this came from a “real” gunsmith. I would guess in order to fix this mess its going to have to be machined true again and reblued, this was a 100% original shotgun, even the front wood had matching numbers (most from this erra had split and been replaced). It’s really a shame. The worst part is where he went into the engraving, not sure how that can ever be fixed, also the top of the port goes ABOVE the original line of the port, so the entire upper edge of ejection port will have to be moved up. I take that back, the worst part is I called not once, not twice but THREE times to make 200% this was NOT going to be done :cry:



Sorry about the pics, I'll crop/rehost tomorrow when I'm not on this computer.
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby macphisto on Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:15 pm

Oof, that's pretty rough.

I wonder if he did it on purpose because you were rude to him.
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby ijosef on Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:42 pm

RAGGED, thank you for taking me (admittedly weak) bait and posting the pics. I can't believe he hacked your gun, especially after you told him numerous times not to touch the receiver. What about "don't touch the receiver" didn't he understand? Did they make any sort of offer to make things right, or did they just tell you that they did good work and you complain too much?
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby RAGGED on Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:12 am

ijosef wrote:RAGGED, thank you for taking me (admittedly weak) bait and posting the pics. I can't believe he hacked your gun, especially after you told him numerous times not to touch the receiver. What about "don't touch the receiver" didn't he understand? Did they make any sort of offer to make things right, or did they just tell you that they did good work and you complain too much?



I knew it was bait : )

He sharpied the bare metal and also removed the large burr on the outside, but the carnage on the inside was left to be and I was told anymore work would come out of my pocket, Doug even said something about I can take them to court if I want and that this was coming directly from the owner.

It all started because I was up there buying a new shotgun and mentioned something about having an old Browning 16ga A5 that I wish ran better with modern plastic shells, the salesman went and asked Bob about it, came back and said it's a simple $80 boring operation where they lengthen the chamber for the newer plastic shells and they do it all the time. I told my father I planned on bringing it up there for work and he got worried they would try and modify the ejection port, apparently he had brought it into a shop once and that is what they told them had to be done (this may be correct to have it run 100% ) but they advised NOT doing that because of the age and value of the gun. That exchange with my father is what let to the subsequent calls to confirm that the receiver would not be touched in any way, the claim ticket I had said bore ONLY, with ONLY underlined. What’s funny is Doug was a real jerk and after they sharpie the hackjob he even made some comment about getting free work, yeah they just cut the value of a 75 year old shotgun in half and they had the nerve to get lippy with me for not wanting to pay for the unwanted work, wish I had balls that big!

Unbelievably there is even more to this horrible story but it has less to do with gunsmithing and everything to do with customer service and accountability.

Just for fun I may send an email to Joes with a link to this thread, see if they want to rethink their position on the matter, if they did end up doing right by me I'd be happy to tell people that they did the right thing, hell I may even buy another rifle from them someday.
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby Bulldawg on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:11 am

All I can say is WOW!!!...I actually feel a little sick after viewing those photos. Thanks for posting them though...it helps us all make educated decsions on dealers/gunsmiths to use in the future. Bunch of effin hacks!!! :o
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby RAGGED on Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:14 am

Bulldawg wrote:All I can say is WOW!!!...I actually feel a little sick after viewing those photos. Thanks for posting them though...it helps us all make educated decsions on dealers/gunsmiths to use in the future. Bunch of effin hacks!!! :o



I've felt sick for 3 years, someday I'll spend the money to have the damage un-done. I could probably fix the metal work myself, in fact I know I could, but then the action and barrel would need to be re-blued which is fine. The guns value is screwed as it is, that will never change, and it will be in my family forever so now I just want to restore it and shoot it.

Also it should be noted, even after the hack-a-thon the thing works no better with plastic shells, it was all for nothing.

Which also reminds me, the previous trip to Bob Everson was for a 10/22 that liked to light strike. Bob charged me $75 for “firing pin fitting and firing pin R&R” got the rifle back and it was worse than before. I reinstalled the Power Custom titanium pin that was previously in there, did some reading online and checked the headspace spec on the bolt, WAY too much, the pocket on the bolt was almost .020” too deep which was preventing the pin from going forward enough to ignite the rim. I milled off .018” from the face of the bolt and the rifle hasn’t skipped a beat since. At the time I hadn’t even considered it a competency issue, just figured a blind squirrel finds a nut ever once and while (me being the blind squirrel) but it retrospect that should have raised some issues with the competency of this smith, as it stands now I wouldn’t even trust the hack to clean my rifles let alone do any Smithing.

On a side note, any shotgun reloaders know anything about manufacturing cardboard shells, any place sell the supplies for such, I keep forgetting to ask john when I'm down there.

I did send a link to this thread to Joes. I’d like to see them explain it from their side. I have the old emails from Doug, the original claim slip detailing the work that was to be done (or should I say not done). I can pull up the old credit card charge for the work (I did pay them for the bore work).
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby 1911fan on Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:51 am

The plastic shells should not be the issue, unless your gun was chambered for the 2.5 inch 16 gauge, which would be odd as that pretty much died out in the late teens. The proper fix for making those guns run was to rechamber to the proper depth, and then mill just about an 1/8 inch off the ejector, which allowed the hull to be extracted far enough back to allow the crimped area of the hull to clear the front edge of the port. You never had to mill out the E port as the shell only had to retract another 1/8 inch to clear that front edge, and the punch of the ejector against the rim was plenty strong enough to throw the shell clear.

Paper tends to make guns not run well, vs running better than plastic...
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby RAGGED on Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:05 pm

1911fan wrote:The plastic shells should not be the issue, unless your gun was chambered for the 2.5 inch 16 gauge, which would be odd as that pretty much died out in the late teens. The proper fix for making those guns run was to rechamber to the proper depth, and then mill just about an 1/8 inch off the ejector, which allowed the hull to be extracted far enough back to allow the crimped area of the hull to clear the front edge of the port. You never had to mill out the E port as the shell only had to retract another 1/8 inch to clear that front edge, and the punch of the ejector against the rim was plenty strong enough to throw the shell clear.

Paper tends to make guns not run well, vs running better than plastic...


Good to know, I think its a great little auto, every time I see a box of old paper rounds I buy them up and go shoot it, works great with them but the plastic rounds always seem to get caught while ejecting. I'll have to remember the 1/8" off the ejector thing if I ever get the nerve to bring it somewhere, any recommendations for an A5 expert?
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby jweiss on Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:40 pm

RAGGED wrote:
Sigfan220 wrote:I have had the bulk of my work done at Joe's in St Paul. It's been a while so the smith's name escapes me. He has done rifle and shotgun work everything turned out great.



Bob Everson is a F******* hack and Joes can go to hell, biggest mistake of my life was not dragging their sorry asses into court for wrecking my 1937 Browning 16 ga Auto :x

Please someone stick up for this ******* so I can post LOTS of great pics

all i wanted joes to do was realign the mag tube on my rem 1100 (it got tweeked) they ground on the chamber end of the barrel to get it to line up instead of just tweeking the tube never did work right again took it out wolfs den they took one look at it and said get rid of it traded it in at gander on a mossberg 500 (hope none of you folks got it)
Just because your paranoid doesn't mean their not out to get you. Henry Kissinger A wise man once said to me strive to own one of every type and caliber.
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby JJ on Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:42 pm

http://keelersgunsmithing.com/ Chris is located in Becker, a new guy to the smithing game working on building a customer base. He also occasionally posts here on MGT under the username KaPow, but I'm not to sure how often he checks in. It might be worth taking a second to PM him.
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby RAGGED on Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:24 pm

jweiss wrote:all i wanted joes to do was realign the mag tube on my rem 1100 (it got tweeked) they ground on the chamber end of the barrel to get it to line up instead of just tweeking the tube never did work right again took it out wolfs den they took one look at it and said get rid of it traded it in at gander on a mossberg 500 (hope none of you folks got it)



Sorry to hear that, it would seem Bob likes to grind on things, I have to wonder if he has any tools other than a Dremel.

JJH- Thanks for the heads up. I suspect it will be a long time before I bring anything to any smith. I've done pretty good the past 3 years, looking up how to do things on the net and in books, making or buying tools when needed, it's been fun and don't know why I didn't start doing it this way a long time ago.
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Re: reputable gunsmiths

Postby monschman on Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:52 pm

Hey ragged, sorry you had to go through the experience. If you are looking for someone else that knows how to work on shotguns give Pat Laib a call. He is out in spicer but if you can get a hold of the man he will tell you straight what you need to know. His work load as of a few years back was insane and he wasnt taking in any new work and what he did take in was waaaaaaay backlogged. I say give the man a call, when it comes to shotguns he is the only person I ever trusted with mine and will do so again when i get my collection back together
Here is his contact info:
Laibs Gunsmithing LLC.
N. Highway 23
Spicer , Mn. 56288
Phone: 320.796.2686
Fax: 320.796.4570
E-Mail: pllaib@clearwire.net
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