Fox 9 piece on guns in school

[hunter722]

Did anyone see the piece on Channel 9 tonight about the shooting in the school in Wis? There was a 'discussion' between Heather Martens and John Caile about whether teachers should carry guns in school in order to provide a quicker response to these sorts of things. Just about the dumbest premise I've heard of in a long time. How in the hell would you find a member of the MEA who would be willing to carry a gun? Heck, they're afraid to holler at a kid these days.

[chunkstyle]

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/news ... ion-nov-30

[westberg]

I think Heather confused herself with her analogy, Jeff didn't understand it.

[westhope]

Excellent job John. As you always have done, you represent us very well in the media.

Thanks.

[Heffay]

Good piece, and the pro-gun side was well presented. And now you know why I hate analogies as a means of explaining or defending a point.

Ok, say this cliff was only 10 feet tall, and on the edge of a lake....

Well, what if the lake was a gravel pit with no exit?

What if it was winter and the water was frozen?



I can't understand why some people just don't understand what "comprehensive" really means. Any single method used to prevent gun violence in schools is going to fail. You have to use many different overlapping tactics at all levels. Both reactive and proactive.

[hammAR]

I can't understand why some people just don't understand what "comprehensive" really means. Any single method used to prevent gun violence in schools is going to fail. You have to use many different overlapping tactics at all levels. Both reactive and proactive.

That is exactly why I support the TSA taking over school security.......

[phorvick]

Did anyone see the piece on Channel 9 tonight about the shooting in the school in Wis? There was a 'discussion' between Heather Martens and John Caile about whether teachers should carry guns in school in order to provide a quicker response to these sorts of things. Just about the dumbest premise I've heard of in a long time. How in the hell would you find a member of the MEA who would be willing to carry a gun? Heck, they're afraid to holler at a kid these days.

I know a number of principals that either carry themselves or have given permission for some staff to carry. Even the Pres. of EdMN was on TV a few years ago saying that they had no objection, so long as the teachers were properly trained. (And, let's not try to parse that....I had e-mail with her and she said all she meant was having a PTC.) It is not many in the big scene, but it is already done in some schools.

[Tommy Gun]

A good discussion. Both sides had a chance to speak and didn't try to talk over the other. I congratulate Jeff, John & Heather for a participating in a useful dialog instead of a shouting match.

Though flawed, I didn't think her analogy was the problem as much as her faulty assumptions. For example:

Any loaded firearm is "a safety hazard." -- And so is a #2 pencil, an electric mixer and a circular saw. But "safety hazard" isn't what is being discussed. In the context of the discussion, a loaded firearm in the possession of a properly trained adult does not put students in greater danger. A loaded firearm in the hands of someone who intends to do harm to others puts students in greater danger.

Teachers carrying firearms would need to be trained "like a SWAT Team member". -- If I may borrow a line from Seinfeld, "not that there's anything wrong with that!" Needless to say, this is an exaggeration which doesn't help her argument. The average security guard or police officer doesn't have SWAT training.

A comprehensive approach is the best way to prevent loss of innocent life in shootings like this. That's because no single approach is ideal. For example, screening for mental illness may work to prevent some shootings, but not all. From what I have heard so far, this kid in Wisconsin was a model student, Boy Scout and nobody would have guessed that he might do anything like bring a gun to school, threaten his fellow students and, eventually take his own life.

Well, that's my $.02, FWIW.

[xd ED]

I know a number of principals that either carry themselves or have given permission for some staff to carry. Even the Pres. of EdMN was on TV a few years ago saying that they had no objection, so long as the teachers were properly trained. (And, let's not try to parse that....I had e-mail with her and she said all she meant was having a PTC.) It is not many in the big scene, but it is already done in some schools.

Can a school administrator allow preemption of the school property carry prohibitions, or are school employees somehow exempt?
I infer from your comment we're talking about being at school somewhere in MN.

[EAJuggalo]

The school principal has the authority to authorize individual permit holders to carry on school property. I can't find where in the statutes this is discussed but I know of at least one member here who has such permission.

Can someone point me in the direction of the statute that lists the places a permit holder is not allowed to carry?

[ttousi]

schools 609.66 IIRC

[ttousi]

yup

Subd. 1d.Possession on school property; penalty.

(a) Except as provided under paragraphs (d) and (f), whoever possesses, stores, or keeps a dangerous weapon while knowingly on school property is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

(b) Whoever uses or brandishes a replica firearm or a BB gun while knowingly on school property is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

(c) Whoever possesses, stores, or keeps a replica firearm or a BB gun while knowingly on school property is guilty of a misdemeanor.

(d) Notwithstanding paragraph (a), (b), or (c), it is a misdemeanor for a person authorized to carry a firearm under the provisions of a permit or otherwise to carry a firearm on or about the person's clothes or person in a location the person knows is school property. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation of this paragraph is not subject to forfeiture.

(e) As used in this subdivision:

(1) "BB gun" means a device that fires or ejects a shot measuring .18 of an inch or less in diameter;

(2) "dangerous weapon" has the meaning given it in section 609.02, subdivision 6;

(3) "replica firearm" has the meaning given it in section 609.713; and

(4) "school property" means:

(i) a public or private elementary, middle, or secondary school building and its improved grounds, whether leased or owned by the school;

(ii) a child care center licensed under chapter 245A during the period children are present and participating in a child care program;

(iii) the area within a school bus when that bus is being used by a school to transport one or more elementary, middle, or secondary school students to and from school-related activities, including curricular, cocurricular, noncurricular, extracurricular, and supplementary activities; and

(iv) that portion of a building or facility under the temporary, exclusive control of a public or private school, a school district, or an association of such entities where conspicuous signs are prominently posted at each entrance that give actual notice to persons of the school-related use.

(f) This subdivision does not apply to:

(1) active licensed peace officers;

(2) military personnel or students participating in military training, who are on-duty, performing official duties;

(3) persons authorized to carry a pistol under section 624.714 while in a motor vehicle or outside of a motor vehicle to directly place a firearm in, or retrieve it from, the trunk or rear area of the vehicle;

(4) persons who keep or store in a motor vehicle pistols in accordance with section 624.714 or 624.715 or other firearms in accordance with section 97B.045;

(5) firearm safety or marksmanship courses or activities conducted on school property;

(6) possession of dangerous weapons, BB guns, or replica firearms by a ceremonial color guard;

(7) a gun or knife show held on school property;

(8) possession of dangerous weapons, BB guns, or replica firearms with written permission of the principal or other person having general control and supervision of the school or the director of a child care center; or

(9) persons who are on unimproved property owned or leased by a child care center, school, or school district unless the person knows that a student is currently present on the land for a school-related activity.

(g) Notwithstanding section 471.634, a school district or other entity composed exclusively of school districts may not regulate firearms, ammunition, or their respective components, when possessed or carried by nonstudents or nonemployees, in a manner that is inconsistent with this subdivision.

[xd ED]

yup

Subd. 1d.Possession on school property; penalty.

(a) Except as provided under paragraphs (d) and (f), whoever possesses, stores, or keeps a dangerous weapon while knowingly on school property is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.
~~~~~~~~~~~~snipped for brevity~~~~~~~~~~~

(d)


(3) persons authorized to carry a pistol under section 624.714 while in a motor vehicle or outside of a motor vehicle to directly place a firearm in, or retrieve it from, the trunk or rear area of the vehicle;

(4) persons who keep or store in a motor vehicle pistols in accordance with section 624.714 or 624.715 or other firearms in accordance with section 97B.045;



(8) possession of dangerous weapons, BB guns, or replica firearms with written permission of the principal or other person having general control and supervision of the school or the director of a child care center; or


~~~~~~~~~~~~snipped for brevity~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks