Permit denied, next steps..

[Hammer99...]

6) a loan between persons lawfully engaged in hunting or target shooting if the loan is intended for a period of no more than 12 hours;

Why can't he legally posses a firearm? I think his right to posses was restored.

We don't know why he was denied... He MAY NOT have his rights (according to what he said, he SHOULD) we don't know the details.

Agreed. So why do you assume he can't posses a handgun?

[JJ]

6) a loan between persons lawfully engaged in hunting or target shooting if the loan is intended for a period of no more than 12 hours;

Why can't he legally posses a firearm? I think his right to posses was restored.

We don't know why he was denied... He MAY NOT have his rights (according to what he said, he SHOULD) we don't know the details.

Agreed. So why do you assume he can't posses a handgun?

Because he can't get a PTP?

[gyrfalcon]

Federal trumps state. If you're not allowed to own a firearm by federal law, state can not allow you to.

Fully agreed. My point is just because you pass a NICS check doesn't necessarily mean you're legally eligible to own a firearm. Some podunk county might not have updated your records correctly with the Feds and they don't know you're ineligible. This is the reason that was given to the Minnesota legislature for still needed to have permit to purchase checks...

For arguments sake (and I love to argue) he wasn't convicted of a crime of violence. He is just your average run of the mill felon who had his (I'm going to murder this in legal terms) right to own a gun ordered away. He has had that right restored by time or court order (My guess). So If my half truths and assumptions are correct there should be no legal issue with an instructor loaning him a gun for a P2C class. Because the instructor has no obligation to check for a P2P or report the loan. The student is legally allowed to posses the handgun.

We don't know what he was convicted of, and probably never will. For example fleeing a police officer might not be a crime of violence, but maybe the officer said you he was assaulted during the arrest. The one thing we do know is that the police believe he's ineligible to own a firearm and won't issue a permit to purchase. Maybe he could go into Gander and buy a rifle, but that doesn't mean it'll be legal for him to own. An instructor or a range like Bills might rent him a pistol, but he could be breaking the law in doing so.

[Hammer99...]

"We don't know what he was convicted of, and probably never will. For example fleeing a police officer might not be a crime of violence, but maybe the officer said you he was assaulted during the arrest. The one thing we do know is that the police believe he's ineligible to own a firearm and won't issue a permit to purchase. Maybe he could go into Gander and buy a rifle, but that doesn't mean it'll be legal for him to own. An instructor or a range like Bills might rent him a pistol, but he could be breaking the law in doing so

Yes but the point I'm trying to make is:

1. P2P denial does not = no possession? If thats the case anytime somebody was denied a P2P, P2C or failed NICS. They would have to get rid off all there guns until they got it straitened out. He is convinced that he can legally posses a handgun. Who are we to say he can't.

2. I believe an instructor has no legal obligation to report or check anything while loaning a firearm for the shooting part of the class.

If it turns out that he truly could not posses the firearm he is the only one who should be on the hot seat.

[ktech]

We can speculate about this all day, but the only real solution for him is to get an attorney and stay mum about the issue on here.
No need to complicate things for him by assuming (or make him want to respond in order to confirm/deny some of these assumptions).

My 2 cents.

[RobD]

WE DON'T KNOW!

We don't know what the deal is.. but the fact is, he failed a PTP.... so the possibility exists.

One thing's for sure... I'm not selling him anything.

[gyrfalcon]

1. P2P denial does not = no possession? If thats the case anytime somebody was denied a P2P, P2C or failed NICS. They would have to get rid off all there guns until they got it straitened out.

If you're denied P2P, P2C or failed NICS that indicates a particular agency has a problem with your background and history from their records/perspective. In the end you're the one who's responsible for making sure what you do is legal.

2. I believe an instructor has no legal obligation to report or check anything while loaning a firearm for the shooting part of the class. If it turns out that he truly could not posses the firearm he is the only one who should be on the hot seat.

The instructor might not have a legal obligation. If it could be shown that the instructor had some knowledge they were loaning the firearm to someone who was ineligible they could end up in trouble though. Also if someone ineligible has or had firearm they could be charge with a more serious crime...

"Anyone who has been convicted of a felony is banned by federal law from ever possessing "any firearm or ammunition." Specifically a person "convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year" cannot possess any firearm in any location. 18 U.S.C. 922(g) is the federal law that prohibits anyone ever convicted of any felony to ever possess any firearm either inside or outside of his home. The federal punishment for felon gun possession is up to 10 years in prison."

So in this case local law enforcement sees this person as being ineligible. I think recommending that he tries to buy or use a firearm is pretty dumb until that issue is resolved; or he has had competent legal council advise him he is okay in doing so.

[Hammer99...]

I might be wrong but I'm convinced of one thing. If you can legally posses a firearm you can take a P2C class and borrow a gun from the instructor even if you just received a P2P denial. If it turns out you could not posses a handgun then you are the only one who broke the law. The instructor did nothing wrong.

[Hammer99...]

WE DON'T KNOW!

We don't know what the deal is.. but the fact is, he failed a PTP.... so the possibility exists.

One thing's for sure... I'm not selling him anything.

I know but its a slow day at work today so I have nothing better to do then argue hypotheticals. And I do agree selling him a gun would be against the law.

[farmerj]

...Go purchase a long gun. Rifle or a shotgun. If you can purchase one of those, you are legal to possess ANY firearm....you have to remember, this is a permit to PURCHASE handgun or assault weapon. Not a permit to OWN firearm....So if he can possess a rifle, why wouldn't he be able to possess a handgun for a permit to carry class?

No need to lecture, I fully understand it's a permit to PURCHASE. If you're denied a permit to purchase the NICS check will almost certainly be denied/delayed. Even if the NICS check goes through that doesn't mean you're legally able to own a firearm. Since this persons permit to purchase was denied the State obviously has an issue with him buying a firearm and has most likely reported it to the Feds. He has to get the state issues worked out before he can own a firearm legally either way.

There's this "little" question on the permit to purchase form....

Under the law of the jurisdiction where you were convicted, has your conviction been expunged, set aside, pardoned, or have you had your civil rights restored?

So just because someone at the local level wants to mess with his permit to purchase...

I believe it was stated...

He has had that right restored by time or court order (My guess).

So what is it? Has he or has he not had his civil rights re-instated? without answering that question, the rest of it's just blowing hot air.

[Gunnar]

A

[traveler]

I did not assault the arresting officer…
Do I need to take a class BEFORE I apply for the PTC?

I'm sorry, I cannot resist.

[gyrfalcon]

There's this "little" question on the permit to purchase form....So just because someone at the local level wants to mess with his permit to purchase...So what is it? Has he or has he not had his civil rights re-instated? without answering that question, the rest of it's just blowing hot air.

Yeah you bring up a good point. Not answering the questions on a 4473 form correctly can subject you to a felony in an of itself. If someone at the local level is really messing with you getting a P2P, you can still try to acquire firearms legally, but you're the one responsible in filling out the transaction record.

[rtk]

I did not assault the arresting officer…
Do I need to take a class BEFORE I apply for the PTC?

I'm sorry, I cannot resist.

I think Traveler is spot on!

[Gunnar]

I did not assault the arresting officer…
Do I need to take a class BEFORE I apply for the PTC?

I'm sorry, I cannot resist.

It does sound funny taken out of context, but I am here for information, not to be laughed at by a guy hiding behind a monkey.