How to shoot and sight in a rifle? - Appleseed Update

[wrench]

Congratulations, you guys! You were willing to put in the work, and it showed. Now make us proud, keep it up

[JoeH]

Well done! Excellent job asking for help, then taking said help and working hard. Isn't it more fun getting in the game and not just watching Top Shot on TV?

[Scott Notaeh]

Well done! Excellent job asking for help, then taking said help and working hard. Isn't it more fun getting in the game and not just watching Top Shot on TV?

Thanks. Got rid of that TV over two years ago now.

[Scott Notaeh]

Was going to post this on the Appleseed forum but they are in the process of reviewing my forum registration so I will post it here:

Went to the Appleseed Project weekend in Hinckley MN on April 16th and 17th, 2011 with my wife. We were new to firearms and had first shot rifles only a couple weeks before the event. Like swimming, shooting is a skill that all Americans should learn and just like I can swim and am bringing my sons to swimming lessons, I need to learn to shoot and teach them to shoot.

The biggest problem is that we didn’t know where to start. I learned about Appleseed on the forum mnguntalk.com and was very interested as it sounded perfect for us especially since my wife also has taken an interest in learning more about early American history. My wife was also a bit nervous around firearms and the thought of going to training stressed her out. I would relate it again to swimming where someone might want to learn to swim but has some fear of water and the thought of going to training stresses them out. Thankfully, some great folks at mnguntalk.com offered to teach us firearm safety rules so we would be more comfortable and taught us on sling use and rifle position shooting. We even had multiple offers to lend us another rifle to use and we borrowed one. We also were given some Appleseed targets to practice on so by the time we signed up for the Appleseed, my wife was confident and excited to go. (Contrast this with when we first met up with a very generous lady who offered to teach us safety and how to shoot and sight in our rifles, when we were asked who wanted to shoot first, my wife shook her head, took a big step back and said, “not me!”)

Day one arrived and we awoke to a nice layer of snow on the ground and a very cold wind. We shot with two others in the class who both had been to an Appleseed before. There were two trainers or one and a trainer in training. I was very glad that we both had semi-auto 22lr rifles with the suggested sling as it made things easier. I will just say to follow the suggested list of what to bring. The training was fast paced and good – when they said that they packed a week’s worth of training into two days, they were right. One in our group was a very experienced shooter who had taken many training classes but still seemed to learn lots in the class. From reading on some of the gun forums, it seems like many experienced shooters think that Appleseed is only for beginners but I think that while it is good for beginners because it is friendly and safe and instructors can take the time to help with basics, it is also a very good training where even advanced shooters can learn and improve. I also liked that there were no politics involved and they were not selling anything. The instructors were very knowledgeable, focused on safety, happy to help you learn and get better, and extremely friendly and helpful.

The way the training worked on the first day is that the instructors demonstrated some techniques for 10 minutes or so and then you went up to the line and shot for 15 minutes using the new techniques. Then repeat. The shooting is physically demanding for those like me who are less than fit as you are getting into many positions so we would occasionally take a “break” where we would learn about the beginning of the revolutionary war in a storytelling format. We enjoyed the history and it was well told. It did not disrupt the shooting but complemented it and it came just when we needed a break.

I would guess that we shot around 175 – 200 rounds each on the first day and all shots were precisely aimed. They trained us to shoot accurately in field positions such as standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone using the sling and stance for support. I would guess that many who mostly shoot from a bench or using bipods would learn lots at an Appleseed. My wife outshot me on the version of the Army Qualification Test (AQT) that they use to judge progress and she was downright giddy about it. For those that don’t know, the AQT is 40 shots using different positions on progressively smaller targets. You also need to change magazines and transition positions. It is timed which had me rushing too much at first and my wife not getting all of her shots off. She also had some issues where the last round in the magazine of her Marlin 795 would not load. The round would have scratch marks on it but would stay in the mag. The issue did not follow the magazine. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know. She ended up borrowing the instructor’s identical 795.

On the second day, we lost one person and gained another. Even though there was no snow, the wind picked up and the morning seemed even colder than day one. We shot a lot on day two mostly on AQTs. We also ran drills to help diagnose issues and correct them. Everyone improved but no one was able to shoot a rifleman score. My wife still outshot me so she was happy. Her top score was 162 and mine was 152. I think we went through a good 500 rounds each on the second day so the recommended ammo amount might be a little light. My wife and I went through more than 2 ½ boxes of 525 count ammo combined.

I got to shoot 5 rounds through the instructor’s M1A at the end and it was a highlight for me. We ended up very tired with some newly found sore muscles by the end. We were both very pleased with the program and happy we went. Both my wife and I want to go back and work on improving. We will most likely bring some others next time. I would highly recommend Appleseed to anyone who wants to improve their rifle marksmanship.

Do you know how to swim? If not now, when?

[Scott Notaeh]

Still plugging away.

Got Dean's rifle back to him - wife is really glad we had two of the exact same rifles so I had absolutely no excuses when she kept scoring higher than me. Wife claimed my Marlin so I decided to purchase a second one. Delayed again at Fleet Farm (3 for 3) but they called back and I can pick it up now. Ordered another set of Tech-Sights. Went to the range over the weekend and practiced. We get funny looks when we move the perfectly good benches and seats out of the way so we can lay on the ground.

I don't think the hard and rough trigger is helping us out any. Most likely just mental issues (it is the equipment and not something that I am doing wrong - I know that if I were doing everything right and consistent that the rough trigger and other things would not matter) but sometimes the last round in the mag does not load so I took the action apart last night to polish up rough areas. Didn't get very far yet so I still have lots of polishing to do. I am following a couple guides I found online and I hope I can get it back together when I am done. Also noticed the stock hits the barrel and wonder if different sling tension causes issues so I might work on that next too.

Wife is planning to go to the next Appleseed in May and bring her sister to it while I spend some time with the boys. Speaking of the boys, if I get an extra stock for the Marlin, can I cut one down to make a youth sized one? Want to get the older one started but the rifle does not fit him.

Also got the Colt 6920 sighted in but I have an issue. The front sling mount is not on the bottom but is at 90 degrees on the left side. What good is that? Looks like there is some sort of mount on the bottom but my current sling mount would not fit in there. What is the best way to get a sling mount in the right place?

[DeanC]

Also got the Colt 6920 sighted in but I have an issue. The front sling mount is not on the bottom but is at 90 degrees on the left side. What good is that?

Because almost nobody knows how to use a sling anymore.

You probably need something like this:

http://www.opticsplanet.net/advanced-te ... wivel.html

[Norsesmithy]

You can hasty-sling in tight on a rifle with side sling attachments just fine, It's just that when you are using a gun with a high capacity magazine, the attachment point on side sling position is much better at keeping the rifle accessible and comfortable when using the sling to carry the rifle. Of course, a free floated front attachment is necessary because unlike bottom sling swivels, you are cranking your shots out of line with the sights if you sling in tight on a rifle that doesn't have free floating sling attachments.

And it's important to think about that, because the shorter sight radius and lighter barrel construction of most milspec barrel profile AR-15s means that you can crank the POI up to 10 MOA (compared to the 3 or 4 MOA deflection most people manage on an M1/M1A style rifle) when you get into the sling good and tight.

At least in my experience.

You should also make sure your front sight is mounted to the barrel and not your free float tube if you intend to use the sling to shoot supported, because if you have a front sight on the tube and the sling on the tube, you won't get any barrel deflection, but you'll get an unknown degree of sight deflection

Lots to think about, but when you do it right, the little mouse guns are scary accurate for a semiauto.

[Scott Notaeh]

You can hasty-sling in tight on a rifle with side sling attachments just fine, It's just that when you are using a gun with a high capacity magazine, the attachment point on side sling position is much better at keeping the rifle accessible and comfortable when using the sling to carry the rifle. Of course, a free floated front attachment is necessary because unlike bottom sling swivels, you are cranking your shots out of line with the sights if you sling in tight on a rifle that doesn't have free floating sling attachments.

And it's important to think about that, because the shorter sight radius and lighter barrel construction of most milspec barrel profile AR-15s means that you can crank the POI up to 10 MOA (compared to the 3 or 4 MOA deflection most people manage on an M1/M1A style rifle) when you get into the sling good and tight.

At least in my experience.

You should also make sure your front sight is mounted to the barrel and not your free float tube if you intend to use the sling to shoot supported, because if you have a front sight on the tube and the sling on the tube, you won't get any barrel deflection, but you'll get an unknown degree of sight deflection

Lots to think about, but when you do it right, the little mouse guns are scary accurate for a semiauto.

You are a bit over my head on this so let me see if I understand correctly. I have this M4 style AR15:
http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp

So my current sling attachment point and front sight are both barrel mounted I think. So this is good for the front sight but I need to have a free floated sling mount. There is what looks like it must be some kind of bayonet mount in the right spot for the sling attachment that I was thinking could be used but sounds like that would be bad because it would not be free floated.

Looks like the bottom mount that Dean is suggesting would hook on the plastic hand guard. Not sure how sturdy that would be and is that free floated? I would guess it is attached to the barrel but I have not looked that closely. How would I put a free float attachment on here? If I understand correctly, the free float attachment thing would be like those big 4 rail things that people put on their ar15 and attach swiss army stuff all over it. I really wanted to keep this thing simple and light so I didn't think I wanted that thing. Guess I am confused.

On the 795 front, I got it put back together last night after taking it all apart and polishing the sear and hammer and everything that rubbed together. Only shot a spring across the room once. Trigger is still crunchy but is lighter. Next is to relive the stock a little so it does not rest on the barrel and perhaps stiffen it up by epoxying a metal bar inside it.

[hammAR]

You are a bit over my head on this so let me see if I understand correctly. I have this M4 style AR15:
http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp

So my current sling attachment point and front sight are both barrel mounted I think. So this is good for the front sight but I need to have a free floated sling mount. There is what looks like it must be some kind of bayonet mount in the right spot for the sling attachment that I was thinking could be used but sounds like that would be bad because it would not be free floated.

Looks like the bottom mount that Dean is suggesting would hook on the plastic hand guard. Not sure how sturdy that would be and is that free floated? I would guess it is attached to the barrel but I have not looked that closely. How would I put a free float attachment on here? If I understand correctly, the free float attachment thing would be like those big 4 rail things that people put on their ar15 and attach swiss army stuff all over it. I really wanted to keep this thing simple and light so I didn't think I wanted that thing. Guess I am confused. It will work fine as is for what you need right now, crap the MIL and LEO communities use it this way. You do not have a floating hand-guard and you will not bend/torque that short barrel, and the sling attachment is mounted to the barrel through the front sight/gas block........................

On the 795 front, I got it put back together last night after taking it all apart and polishing the sear and hammer and everything that rubbed together. Only shot a spring across the room once. Trigger is still crunchy but is lighter. Next is to relive the stock a little so it does not rest on the barrel and perhaps stiffen it up by epoxying a metal bar inside it. Good work.....know your weapon.......keep it up!

When you are ready for more push-ups, we can go to the next level............

[Norsesmithy]

You are a bit over my head on this so let me see if I understand correctly. I have this M4 style AR15:
http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp

So my current sling attachment point and front sight are both barrel mounted I think. So this is good for the front sight but I need to have a free floated sling mount. There is what looks like it must be some kind of bayonet mount in the right spot for the sling attachment that I was thinking could be used but sounds like that would be bad because it would not be free floated.

Looks like the bottom mount that Dean is suggesting would hook on the plastic hand guard. Not sure how sturdy that would be and is that free floated? I would guess it is attached to the barrel but I have not looked that closely. How would I put a free float attachment on here? If I understand correctly, the free float attachment thing would be like those big 4 rail things that people put on their ar15 and attach swiss army stuff all over it. I really wanted to keep this thing simple and light so I didn't think I wanted that thing. Guess I am confused.

The regular sling attachment point is behind the bayonet lug on a standard AR-15 front sight. Dean's rail mount would attach your sling to your plastic handguards, and that's just fine, the handguards are very tough actually. You can also get a free float tube that is not a giant quad rail system, Midway stocks simple smooth aluminum free float tubes from several manufacturers in the 40-50 dollar range, that you could attach a sling to with Dean's linked item.

But really, unless you get into that thing really tight, it's not going to be that big of a deal. The deflection values I mentioned are extreme cases, and if you attach your sling to your plastic handguard, you will certainly affect the rest of the gun less when you sling in tight.

I'd say it'd probably be best to just set the rifle up, and shoot it a bunch before you decide what you need to change.

This is how I attach the front of my sling to my current most favorite AR-15, a midlength gas system .625 profile Bravo Company carbine.

And this is the whole rifle without the sling.

My free float tube is called a Viking Tactics Extreme Battlerail, and it cost me 165 bucks, it's a licensed version of the Troy TRX extreme, just with oval vents instead of a whole bunch of little circles. They are the same price, I got this one because it was in stock, not because of any perceived difference.

Mine is a 9 inch, because of my midlength gas system pushing my front sight/gas block further down the barrel, you'd want a 7 inch free float tube to clear your front sight.

[Scott Notaeh]

When you are ready for more push-ups, we can go to the next level............

We will take you up on that once we make a bit more progress. Wife is planning on going to the appleseed in hinkley this coming weekend. She will bring her sister who we are teaching to shoot (so you and wrench can claim another new shooter trained through getting us started). I will stay home with the boys this time and plan to hit the next appleseed. We got a good day of practice in at the range last weekend. It was cold and at the end of the day we ran through a quick AQT using the android timer app to issue the commands. We both slightly beat our highest scores and even shivering my wife scored higher than me once again. We are happy that we continue to improve.

Thanks for the help on the AR sling guys. I will use it as is for now. I just thought the sling being off center at 90 degrees like that it would want to tip the rifle in a loop sling but I have not tried it yet.

By the way, this thread is just further proof that this is a, "HORRIBLE FORUM." Thanks again.

[farmerj]

But really, unless you get into that thing really tight, it's not going to be that big of a deal. The deflection values I mentioned are extreme cases, and if you attach your sling to your plastic handguard, you will certainly affect the rest of the gun less when you sling in tight.

Yes, the deflection will be enough to matter. So much so that during basic, they teach recruits to rest their forearm on sand bags in the prone supported and foxhole supported positions.It's enough to make them miss. Unless you have a full floated handguard and you are attached to it, any pull you put on the sling will matter.

Advanced marksmanship training, we have a tough time breaking people of this habit and getting into the habit of actually just resting the rifle on the ground on the magazine. (a good reason to have a 30-rounder) You can then use that as a mono-pod.

Best tip one can give you is DO NOT smack the back of your magazine to "seat the rounds" to the rear. It spreads your magazine lips and bends them to the point you WILL get double feeds.

[wrench]

I'm proud of you guys!