Class III info?

[Holland&Holland]

For a guy with a family, it seems the best option is to just rent one once in a while.

Ya, but, but, but... that is what ramin noodles are for.

[Snowgun]

However, if you get licensed by the ATF, you can become a manfucturer and make "post sample" guns. Basically, you can make machine guns, or convert existing guns into machine guns, but you can only sell them to other FFL's, police, and military. "You" are not technically the owner, the business that holds the FFL owns these guns. You (the business, that is) can also transfer in post-86 machine guns from other licensees with the proper ATF paperwork.

So why doesn't someone just do this? Making a LLC that holds this ATF licenced FFL? Then it seems you can own, buy, make and sell (to appropriate parties) any autos?

[Stradawhovious]

For a guy with a family, it seems the best option is to just rent one once in a while.

Its OK. I plan on winning the Powerball on Wednesday.

[monschman]

For a guy with a family, it seems the best option is to just rent one once in a while.

Its OK. I plan on winning the Powerball on Wednesday.

Awesome, can you spot me a fiver till thursday then

[xd ED]

However, if you get licensed by the ATF, you can become a manfucturer and make "post sample" guns. Basically, you can make machine guns, or convert existing guns into machine guns, but you can only sell them to other FFL's, police, and military. "You" are not technically the owner, the business that holds the FFL owns these guns. You (the business, that is) can also transfer in post-86 machine guns from other licensees with the proper ATF paperwork.

So why doesn't someone just do this? Making a LLC that holds this ATF licenced FFL? Then it seems you can own, buy, make and sell (to appropriate parties) any autos?

Many years ago I considered the possibility of getting an FFL. While I didn't thoroughly explore it, I think it would not be a permissible (home based) business in many municipalities. St Paul, and Mpls, at least. In short, it would be more of an investment- being merely an FFL- much less a manufacturer, than my hobby-level interest would allow.

[Bitter Bastard]

However, if you get licensed by the ATF, you can become a manfucturer and make "post sample" guns. Basically, you can make machine guns, or convert existing guns into machine guns, but you can only sell them to other FFL's, police, and military. "You" are not technically the owner, the business that holds the FFL owns these guns. You (the business, that is) can also transfer in post-86 machine guns from other licensees with the proper ATF paperwork.

So why doesn't someone just do this? Making a LLC that holds this ATF licenced FFL? Then it seems you can own, buy, make and sell (to appropriate parties) any autos?

A lot of people do that. But there are zoning laws, business licensing, etc, that also need to be adhered to. I've heard zoning can especially be tricky for manufacturers, since now you are doing mroe than a typical home business and city zoning laws may not allow you to run a manufacturing facility in your basement. It really depends on where you are and how much money you want to invest in startup costs. If you already own a small business, I wouldn't think it would take much to add an FFL to it and be up and running. A drill press, work bench, and gun safe in the corner wouldn't take up too much space, at least at first.

[solidgun]

Many years ago I considered the possibility of getting an FFL. While I didn't thoroughly explore it, I think it would not be a permissible (home based) business in many municipalities. St Paul, and Mpls, at least. In short, it would be more of an investment- being merely an FFL- much less a manufacturer, than my hobby-level interest would allow.

I was in the similar boat when I had a second job that I only got to support my firearm hobby and had inherited a large collection from my grandpa. At that time, my level of interest would have justified getting the FFL status and maybe starting a business by selling about 10 guns in my collection to open a home based shop. But while I do purchase/trade at least 12-20 guns a year, it still isn't worth the hassle of keeping the FFL status.


I am not sure about the Class III status. Personally, my plan was to purchase the ~$10,000 sear for MP5 packs and use that for multiple guns if MN law ever changed or if I move to another free state. I am not interested in full auto, but I really do want burst fire option.

[tman]

However, if you get licensed by the ATF, you can become a manfucturer and make "post sample" guns. Basically, you can make machine guns, or convert existing guns into machine guns, but you can only sell them to other FFL's, police, and military. "You" are not technically the owner, the business that holds the FFL owns these guns. You (the business, that is) can also transfer in post-86 machine guns from other licensees with the proper ATF paperwork.

So why doesn't someone just do this? Making a LLC that holds this ATF licenced FFL? Then it seems you can own, buy, make and sell (to appropriate parties) any autos?

There is something about creating a "Trust" that makes it easier for guns with giggle switches to be kept and passed around family members....Can't remember much about it.

[David]

Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable source, but this chart is actually pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License

"Class 3" is a tax stamp that allows a Type 01 dealer to deal in NFA weapons. You'd have to have both, obviously. If you did, you'd be able to possess pretty much any full-auto. Bill's is able to own anything, and they're in Minnesota, so there's nothing about living here that makes it impossible, only harder. As a private citizen you can't own any non C&R full-autos here, but once you get a Type 01 FFL with a Class 3 SOT stamp you're not a private citizen anymore, so it's wide open. MP5, M249, anything you want. Post '86 guns are WAY cheaper, too, since they can be sold to significantly fewer people, and there's less collector value to these guns, since they aren't WWII relics, for example. A post-86 MP5 is a $1,500 gun. A pre-86 MP5, since any private citizen in many (but not Minnesota) states can buy one without being an FFL, is a $15,000 gun. See the difference?

Having said that, as many mentioned above, these licenses are harder to get, as the BATFE wants to only give them to people who are going to operate legitimate businesses, not to people who just want to go through some paperwork to get a single cheap SMG for themselves. And the local zoning stuff comes into play, and all that. So Type 01/Class 3 is probably not your thing.

I've been thinking about going the Type 07 route. I need to research it more, but it appears to offer you the ability to manufacture full-auto, which includes modifying semi-auto to full-auto. The zoning stuff would still apply, but according to a BATFE agent I talked to at Bill's one morning, these FFLs are much easier for the average person to get, as the expectation is research and development rather than sales to the public. Again, what I know about this is based only on cursory research and one conversation with an agent, so take it as gossip for now.

[Stradawhovious]

I've been thinking about going the Type 07 route. I need to research it more, but it appears to offer you the ability to manufacture full-auto, which includes modifying semi-auto to full-auto. The zoning stuff would still apply, but according to a BATFE agent I talked to at Bill's one morning, these FFLs are much easier for the average person to get, as the expectation is research and development rather than sales to the public. Again, what I know about this is based only on cursory research and one conversation with an agent, so take it as gossip for now.

If you find out anything productive on this........

Please let me know. I would be interested in looking into it.

[1911fan]

A firearms trust is a wonderful thing. Trust me. Google it

[Stradawhovious]

A firearms trust is a wonderful thing. Trust me. Google it

How would that help this situation in MN? Even with an NFA trust it would be illegal for a MN citizen that isn't a qualified FFL to buy and posess NFA firearms that aren't considered C&R.

According to Google anyways.

Post '86 guns are WAY cheaper, too, since they can be sold to significantly fewer people, and there's less collector value to these guns, since they aren't WWII relics, for example. A post-86 MP5 is a $1,500 gun. A pre-86 MP5, since any private citizen in many (but not Minnesota) states can buy one without being an FFL, is a $15,000 gun. See the difference?

.

This was my end goal.

That and conversion.

Seems like a hell of a hurdle though.

Sigh, maybe someday.

[Squib Joe]

Post '86 guns are WAY cheaper, too, since they can be sold to significantly fewer people, and there's less collector value to these guns, since they aren't WWII relics, for example. A post-86 MP5 is a $1,500 gun. A pre-86 MP5, since any private citizen in many (but not Minnesota) states can buy one without being an FFL, is a $15,000 gun. See the difference?

They (posty guns) also require a government agency demo letter- for each gun - which is sometimes harder to get than the license. Most of the machine guns here we made from parts kits or rewats. Factory fresh machine guns are harder and harder to get unless you're working with an agency.

And all of this is the reason why the US is falling behind in small arms development. They make it all but impossible for the average inventor to design something new in select-fire firearms or obtain samples to learn from.

[1911fan]

A firearms trust is a wonderful thing. Trust me. Google it

How would that help this situation in MN? Even with an NFA trust it would be illegal for a MN citizen that isn't a qualified FFL to buy and posess NFA firearms that aren't considered C&R.


.

Ahh. A trust is federal entity. Even if it's registered in a different state ( ours is in Florida) it has the power of a federal entity, gets full faith and credit, and Minnesota is forced to recognize it. A trust by nature often deals with money, property, and other assets all across the Nation. If you are a trustee, you are able to excerise ownership rights under the trust even if from another state.

[Holland&Holland]

But would not one have had to be the recipiant of said trust from someone who died and had a class III then? Seems like the winning the lottery idea has better odds.