Class III info?

[Stradawhovious]

A firearms trust is a wonderful thing. Trust me. Google it

How would that help this situation in MN? Even with an NFA trust it would be illegal for a MN citizen that isn't a qualified FFL to buy and posess NFA firearms that aren't considered C&R.


.

Ahh. A trust is federal entity. Even if it's registered in a different state ( ours is in Florida) it has the power of a federal entity, gets full faith and credit, and Minnesota is forced to recognize it. A trust by nature often deals with money, property, and other assets all across the Nation. If you are a trustee, you are able to excerise ownership rights under the trust even if from another state.

Id have to see a test case on NFA weapons to want to trust the next 25 years of my life to that.

Also, I assume it would require me to have a residence in a state that allows the type of toys I'm looking for.

Which I don't.

So, 1911, if your trust allows you to buy and possess otherwise banned firearms, why don't you have a safe full of them?

Just curious. I know I would.

[David]

Most of the machine guns here we made from parts kits or rewats.

Joe,

Are you able to brew your own with an FFL01/SOT, or do you also have an FFL07 or something? Or did you mean that someone made them for you and transferred them? I don't really know all the ins-and-outs of how that stuff works. Just enough to be dangerous!

And great info in the rest of your post as well, particularly the agency bit. I know a guy in Ohio who got out of the Class 3 thing because it was getting harder to get letters from police departments saying they wanted to try stuff out. Bummer!

[Squib Joe]

Are you able to brew your own with an FFL01/SOT, or do you also have an FFL07 or something? Or did you mean that someone made them for you and transferred them? I don't really know all the ins-and-outs of how that stuff works. Just enough to be dangerous!

We are a FFL07 /Class 2 manufacturer, so we can make just about anything we want (or hire others to make it for us, within limits). But once we make them, they can't be sold. They'll be here until the license is surrendered.

[timwarner]

I've thought about getting a manufacturer's FFL, to do Class III, since I have a lot of equipment at my disposal.
But, it always comes down to paperwork, and cash.

[Squib Joe]

Ahh. A trust is federal entity. Even if it's registered in a different state ( ours is in Florida) it has the power of a federal entity, gets full faith and credit, and Minnesota is forced to recognize it. A trust by nature often deals with money, property, and other assets all across the Nation. If you are a trustee, you are able to excerise ownership rights under the trust even if from another state.

Are you saying that a NFA firearm held in a trust in another state is legal to bring into any other state? Better check with your lawyer on that one! Even bringing it across state lines requires permission per the ATF FAQ:

(M21) Does the registered owner of a destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle need authorization to lawfully transport such items interstate? [Back]
Yes, unless the owner* is a qualified dealer, manufacturer or importer, or a licensed collector transporting only curios or relics. Prior approval must be obtained, even if the move is temporary. Approval is requested by either submitting a letter containing all necessary information, or by submitting ATF Form 5320.20 to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. Possession of the firearms also must comply with all State and local laws.

*The ATF considers the trust itself to be the owner of the firearm. I'm sure Minnesota is forced to recognize the trust as an entity, but that doesn't mean it has no power to enforce law on that entity, or it's trustees, or restrict ownership within the state.

[45Badger]

Ahh. A trust is federal entity. Even if it's registered in a different state ( ours is in Florida) it has the power of a federal entity, gets full faith and credit, and Minnesota is forced to recognize it. A trust by nature often deals with money, property, and other assets all across the Nation. If you are a trustee, you are able to excerise ownership rights under the trust even if from another state.

Are you saying that a NFA firearm held in a trust in another state is legal to bring into any other state? Better check with your lawyer on that one! Even bringing it across state lines requires permission per the ATF FAQ:

(M21) Does the registered owner of a destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle need authorization to lawfully transport such items interstate? [Back]
Yes, unless the owner is a qualified dealer, manufacturer or importer, or a licensed collector transporting only curios or relics. Prior approval must be obtained, even if the move is temporary. Approval is requested by either submitting a letter containing all necessary information, or by submitting ATF Form 5320.20 to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. Possession of the firearms also must comply with all State and local laws.

When I lived in southern PA, I had a shooting buddy who lived in MD. Both states allowed unrestricted class three ownership (none of this "C&R only" BS). Whenever he wanted to bring his suppressors or full auto stuff to our club in PA, he ad to get prior approval noted above. It was never declined, and always prompt.

A trust is usually used to get around a recalcitrant CLEO who doesn't like fun guns another toys in the hands of citizens.

[SAM]

Rules-Rules-Rules. Not like it was in 1968 when you could take down an M-16 and mail it home from Nam-Laos-Cambodia-Quam-alomg with all sorts of other "goodies".

[Erik_Pakieser]

For full auto, your best bets are a S&W M76 or Reising. You can get them in the 5k-6k range. Anything else on the C&R list will likely start at double that.

I would avoid the SOT status, it puts the ATF in your back pocket because as a "manufacturer" you become eligible for additional auditing.

I'd go the trust route instead. It will cost you between $500/600 from a lawyer to set up, at least that's what I am being quoted.

[1911fan]

Squib joe, Its OWNERSHIP of modern class weapons that is prohibited under Minnesota State law, and the ownership of the weapon is not anyone singularly, it is owned by a Legal Entity called the ''The Trust". This is where the Federal aspect of the trust is a wonderful thing. Because firearm ownerships under trust rules are a tiny part, and regulating trusts is a HUGE deal, with TRILLIONS of dollars in trusts, no state wants to run afoul of the rules of Trusts. They have to buy into to the whole concept, either that, or lose billions and billions of dollars in economic activity within the state.

IF I were to entertain a C&R NFA weapon at this time, I would go for a Swedish K, a SW 76 or a M2 carbine, I have played with all three, and personally, enjoy the M2 the most. there are also almost endless parts available for them. Non C&R is hands down the AC556 ruger, full auto mini 14. rock solid, factory supported, If you really want the giggles, its getting a full auto rifle being MAILED to you from the factory after service.

[Squib Joe]

the ownership of the weapon is not anyone singularly, it is owned by a Legal Entity called the ''The Trust".

In the eyes of the ATF and the State, the Trust is a person ( see NFA 479.11 : Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural person. )

MN 609.67 (subd. 3) lists the Persons that may own or possess a machine gun in Minnesota. Nowhere is a Trust listed as one of these persons. In some states they are listed as an exception, but not here.

There is a pretty good chance that I'm wrong, but I'd still suggest getting written approval from the Midwest ATF field office, the Minnesota DPS (and maybe the Pope) before ever attempting to bring a trust NFA gun across the border based on even a lawyer's understanding of trust law.

[SBR1]

Ok.. to make this simple..... IF you were to get a type 07 and then pay the $500 per year for the Class II Manufacturers Tax Stamp... next is you'd have to pay the ITAR Federal Tax or fee, whatever they call it.... as a manufaturer and that is something goofy like $2500 or $3500 per year!!! That is even if you only made ONE gun... and not even a FA gun!! Any Manufactuer MUST pay this, even though MANY do not and have not been caught, yet.

So... the short answer is Give it up.

Sad but true..... MN is a tough Class II state (and I'm a Class III Dealer).

[shadeslanding]

Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable source, but this chart is actually pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License

"Class 3" is a tax stamp that allows a Type 01 dealer to deal in NFA weapons. You'd have to have both, obviously. If you did, you'd be able to possess pretty much any full-auto. Bill's is able to own anything, and they're in Minnesota, so there's nothing about living here that makes it impossible, only harder. As a private citizen you can't own any non C&R full-autos here, but once you get a Type 01 FFL with a Class 3 SOT stamp you're not a private citizen anymore, so it's wide open. MP5, M249, anything you want. Post '86 guns are WAY cheaper, too, since they can be sold to significantly fewer people, and there's less collector value to these guns, since they aren't WWII relics, for example. A post-86 MP5 is a $1,500 gun. A pre-86 MP5, since any private citizen in many (but not Minnesota) states can buy one without being an FFL, is a $15,000 gun. See the difference?

Having said that, as many mentioned above, these licenses are harder to get, as the BATFE wants to only give them to people who are going to operate legitimate businesses, not to people who just want to go through some paperwork to get a single cheap SMG for themselves. And the local zoning stuff comes into play, and all that. So Type 01/Class 3 is probably not your thing.

I've been thinking about going the Type 07 route. I need to research it more, but it appears to offer you the ability to manufacture full-auto, which includes modifying semi-auto to full-auto. The zoning stuff would still apply, but according to a BATFE agent I talked to at Bill's one morning, these FFLs are much easier for the average person to get, as the expectation is research and development rather than sales to the public. Again, what I know about this is based only on cursory research and one conversation with an agent, so take it as gossip for now.

We're an 07 and class 02 NFA (same tax as 03 just for manufacturers)... I'd be happy to answer any questions you have. You can give me a call if you want (usually 10am - 4:30pm on days we are not teaching a class). 952-891-1537

GS

[David]

Ok.. to make this simple..... IF you were to get a type 07 and then pay the $500 per year for the Class II Manufacturers Tax Stamp... next is you'd have to pay the ITAR Federal Tax or fee, whatever they call it.... as a manufaturer and that is something goofy like $2500 or $3500 per year!!! That is even if you only made ONE gun... and not even a FA gun!! Any Manufactuer MUST pay this, even though MANY do not and have not been caught, yet.

Isn't ITAR strictly for international trade? Are you saying that an FFL 07 would have to pay an ITAR fee even if it wasn't planning on exporting anything??? Any of you 07s out there ever heard of this?

[1000]

Ok.. to make this simple..... IF you were to get a type 07 and then pay the $500 per year for the Class II Manufacturers Tax Stamp... next is you'd have to pay the ITAR Federal Tax or fee, whatever they call it.... as a manufaturer and that is something goofy like $2500 or $3500 per year!!! That is even if you only made ONE gun... and not even a FA gun!! Any Manufactuer MUST pay this, even though MANY do not and have not been caught, yet.

Isn't ITAR strictly for international trade? Are you saying that an FFL 07 would have to pay an ITAR fee even if it wasn't planning on exporting anything??? Any of you 07s out there ever heard of this?

For export only.

[Squib Joe]

If you manufacture a defense article listed on the USML (and this includes ALL firearms), you are required to register with ITAR if there is the intention or possibility that the article will later be sold and possibly exported either legally or illegally.

If you manufacture NFA firearms that aren't for sale, the registration does not apply. "Persons who engage only in the fabrication of articles for experimental or scientific purpose, including research and development" are excluded from registration.

If you make even a single SBR and sell it, it would apply. Currently I believe the registration is 2700.00 a year.