Another Juvenile Gun Death

[tman]

As long as you understand that keeping a loaded firearm ANYWHERE a child may have access to it is a crime in MN.

I was wondering 'bout that ... so, is one of the parents goin' to prison?

If the kids loaded the ammo into an empty gun, I'd argue that the parents didn't violate the law.

[sharpshot71]

As long as you understand that keeping a loaded firearm ANYWHERE a child may have access to it is a crime in MN.

I was wondering 'bout that ... so, is one of the parents goin' to prison?

If the kids loaded the ammo into an empty gun, I'd argue that the parents didn't violate the law.

Do they define a child as under 18 years old for the purpose of this law?

Is it only a loaded gun? So it is not unloaded guns with ammo nearby?

[Eric Marleau]

I teach the rules TMan.
Nothing was mentioned about loaded guns.

Eric

[meddin]

The rules...

Subd. 2.Access to firearms.A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who negligently stores or leaves a loaded firearm in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a child is likely to gain access, unless reasonable action is taken to secure the firearm against access by the child.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.666

[rugersol]

... gross misdemeanor ... negligently ... person knows ... reasonably should know ... likely ... reasonable ...

Wow!

Lawyers on both sides could have a heckuva day with all that!

"gross misdemeanor" ... sounds like an "educational" law, to me.

... as to "educational", I took a couple hours this weekend to go over the basics, with my own kids ... again ... explained what these boys did ... and the result ... and how "stupid" it was ... and what they should say/do, should one of their friends suggest they "play guns".

I gotta say, I was very impressed with my daughter ... I explained how an automatic works ... and upon ejecting the magazine, I asked "is it empty?" ... without hesitation, she immediately said "no!", and pointed to the chamber.

Also gotta say ... once again ... I found it invaluable to have a realistic looking toy gun (soft-air) ... and a BB-gun ... "how do you know it's a toy?" ... "it has an orange muzzle" ... "is a BB-gun a toy?" ... "no".

[Eric Marleau]

I REALLY stay away from the argument weather to keep guns in a safe or to have them in the open. It opens a can of worms that I don't want to get into in a Firearms Safety Class. That call MUST remain with the Parents.
However, a couple of years ago, one of my instructors opened up that can, and I had to address the issue. I normally have most Parents with their kids in class. 50 kids and their folks.
The I told the folks my issues with hiding guns, and making them the "forbidding fruit", as I did in my previous posts. My final point was, that when my Wife and I go somewhere with the kids home alone, we know that with out efforts on gun safety, and with rules that no friends are to be there when we are gone, we don't have any worries.
IF though, a parent takes the easy way of training, and thinks for a second that their kids can't get to the guns in the safe, they better think twice.
I then proceeded to have a quiet conversation with my Instructor about not doing this again. As a matter of fact this issue cause me to not teach again with the individual.

Also, the law about loaded guns is well known, but it sounds like these kids picked up an unloaded firearm, and then started messing with it. Either way, the results were tragic for not just the child that was killed, but for both families.

Eric

[tazdevil]

The rules...

Subd. 2.Access to firearms.A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who negligently stores or leaves a loaded firearm in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a child is likely to gain access, unless reasonable action is taken to secure the firearm against access by the child.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.666

That then raises the question of definition of a "child". What age is no longer considered a "child"? 16 y/o's can be tried as a adult, but 18 y/o's can't drink, you have to be 21.

All my guns are locked up, the children I have know where they are, but have no desire to go try to get them. I make it perfectly clear they can touch, handle, and learn about them IF I AM PRESENT AND WITH THEM THE ENTIRE TIME . They have looked at and handled them, and that satisfied their curiosity. I pull up Youtube vids of "gun accidents" and have them tell met what the person did wrong. That has ended any desire they have to handle the firearms, they only came to me once in the last 2 years to ask to see/handle them after that. They also do not, and will not be told the safe's combination.

[tman]

That then raises the question of definition of a "child". What age is no longer considered a "child"? 16 y/o's can be tried as a adult, but 18 y/o's can't drink, you have to be 21.

(b) "Child" means a person under the age of 18 years.

[OldmanFCSA]

Teach your kids firearms safety from the start, and you don't have to keep them locked up.
No problem with locking up your guns, but lots of folks use that as the easy way out concerning their kids and guns.
None of our Dads growing up in Ely ever had guns locked up, but our Parents taught us the right way about safety.
Guns were an everyday way of life.
My Wife and I have raised our kids the same way, with great results, but it took time on both of our parts.



I know that I'm most likely starting a firestorm on my thoughts, but I'm dead set against locking up your guns to keep your kids out of trouble.
Gun safes should be used for criminals.
Firearms safety started VERY early should be used for kids.Eric

As long as you understand that keeping a loaded firearm ANYWHERE a child may have access to it is a crime in MN.

I AGREE with both positions here and have had many discussions with the Sherriff Deputies and Sherriff where I raised my children. The LAW and REAL LIFE are two totally different realities. How do you interpet the LAW? Strictly by the BOOK, or by REAL LIFE senarios?

Hunter Safety was at 12 years old, parent with child in woods deer hunting first year.
Age 13 (14 for my children,my rules) through Age 18 children can be unsupervised while huntinng for deer and other game animals. He comes back to house (camp) with a loaded gun, unloads it, sleeps, eats, whatever, goes out again, loads gun, continues their hunt. ALL THE TIME WHILE VIOLATING the LAW as stated above.

What is your legal stance on this?
No hunting until after age 18 ?

My daughter, at age 17, shot targets just as completion of a Sherriff's department competition. She shot 18 shots thru a revoler GP1000 as fast or faster than most deputies with their semi-auto 40's, and had a tight grouping that highly eembarrassed most of the other shooters. She wanted to shoot at 25 yards, but the deputy I know took her up to the 7 yard line..
Afterwards I had to explain to some deputies why my 17 year old daughter had access to a loaded pistol (revolver in this case), plus knew how to shoot it so well (practice, practice, practice, reloads her own shells), while the other deputies were applauding her for shooting abilities. Go Figure!

My son shot several coyotes that were in our livestock pasture, while a sherriffs deputy was watching him. Later we had another discussion. My son was 14 at the time and the Deputy was also highly involved with school activities so he knew my son and daughters ages. Which was correct - NO ACCESS, or dead livestock? Where we lived, THE GUN wwas used to support and defend our daily lives.

Which is correct - THE LAW or REAL LIFE, IF properly taught about gun safety?
If you chose the second option and any accident happens, THE LAW will be used to judge you.

[Holland&Holland]

Very interesting. Had not ever considered that dicotamy in the law before. I wonder if anyone has every considered this at the state level that their FAS course which includes live fire of .22s is in violation of that same law. Granted they are supervised but that does seem to be a loaded firearm in posession of a minor.

[tman]

The law is about STORING a firearm.

I think it's pretty simple.


The reality, too, is that most likely, the law will be used only after something bad happens.

[Holland&Holland]

The law is about STORING a firearm.

I think it's pretty simple.


The reality, too, is that most likely, the law will be used only after something bad happens.

Nope the law states "leaves a firearm in a location" In a child's hands would be leaving in a location where you know they have access to to it I would imagine.

However your point about reality is of course the true crux of the matter. I agree.

[Eric Marleau]

Great thoughts by all.
Talking about what ages to start advancing kids. I have three. My oldest is a Son, now 21, and is the three time state duck calling champion. Ben was really big for his age, both physically and common sense wise that I was able to put him with a shotgun in the duck blind [with ONLY him and myself] at the age of 8. His first year on the deer stand was at 12 just because of the extreme cold in Ely. I sat with him the entire season.

I also have twins that are now 15yrs. A boy and a girl. Both have been shooting sense they were very young, but it was only until a couple of years ago, that I had them with a shotgun afield. Same with deer hunting.
Kids mature at different ages, and it is up to the parents to figure this out.
The State can do this, and at least for big game has come up with very reasonable ages to hunt.

Another thing about teaching kids.
I have never been a fan of scaring them into respecting firearms. My object has always been to let them know that using guns will be a lifetime of fun for them and their families, with great memories that can never be taken away. They just have to respect the firearm, and use common sense.

Eric

[tman]

Nope the law states "leaves a firearm in a location" In a child's hands would be leaving in a location where you know they have access to to it I would imagine.

However your point about reality is of course the true crux of the matter. I agree.

Here's the entire statute:

609.666 NEGLIGENT STORAGE OF FIREARMS.


Subdivision 1.Definitions.

For purposes of this section, the following words have the meanings given.

(a) "Firearm" means a device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion or force of combustion.

(b) "Child" means a person under the age of 18 years.

(c) "Loaded" means the firearm has ammunition in the chamber or magazine, if the magazine is in the firearm, unless the firearm is incapable of being fired by a child who is likely to gain access to the firearm.


Subd. 2.Access to firearms.

A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who negligently stores or leaves a loaded firearm in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a child is likely to gain access, unless reasonable action is taken to secure the firearm against access by the child.


Subd. 3.Limitations.

Subdivision 2 does not apply to a child's access to firearms that was obtained as a result of an unlawful entry.

I still say this about storage; and "leaving" it lying around would be storing it negligently..

[OldmanFCSA]

Nope the law states "leaves a firearm in a location" In a child's hands would be leaving in a location where you know they have access to to it I would imagine.

However your point about reality is of course the true crux of the matter. I agree.

Here's the entire statute:

609.666 NEGLIGENT STORAGE OF FIREARMS.


Subdivision 1.Definitions.

For purposes of this section, the following words have the meanings given.

(a) "Firearm" means a device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion or force of combustion.

(b) "Child" means a person under the age of 18 years.

(c) "Loaded" means the firearm has ammunition in the chamber or magazine, if the magazine is in the firearm, unless the firearm is incapable of being fired by a child who is likely to gain access to the firearm.


Subd. 2.Access to firearms.

A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who negligently stores or leaves a loaded firearm in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a child is likely to gain access, unless reasonable action is taken to secure the firearm against access by the child.


Subd. 3.Limitations.

Subdivision 2 does not apply to a child's access to firearms that was obtained as a result of an unlawful entry.

I still say this about storage; and "leaving" it lying around would be storing it negligently..

SO -IF a "legal" "child" leaves it lying around, who is responsible ... the State?
By "legal" I mean legally of age to hunt with a loaded firearm during a normal hunting season without adult supervision.
By "child" I mean - read above quotation.
By "leaving" = read the above senarios .........................................................

Now, please read before re-posting the LAW because the LAW is un-useable in this situation that has been approved by the state authorities.

Call it a Catch-22 situation - just post your OWN thoughts about the subject.

Now, STORAGE of a weapon during non-hunting situations, the Law would apply better, but still not perfeect.