Building a Gun

[LarryP]

Saw on American Gun, They built a Colt revolver for a customer from a block of steel.
How would that gun be registered? Does American Gun give it a serial number etc?

[Scratch]

I'm sure they do. Just like building an AKM from a flat. If I sell one, I have to give it a serial number and do the paperwork.

[Bitter Bastard]

I would bet Gunsmoke has their manufacturer's FFL, so they had their company info and a serial number engraved on it as part of the build process. I base that on the fact they have at least one CNC and took orders for more of the guns after the preacher talked them up.

If a non-FFL builds a gun, there is no requirement for any markings or paperwork to sell it. Those regs, federally speaking, are for licensees.

[Scratch]

I would bet Gunsmoke has their manufacturer's FFL, so they had their company info and a serial number engraved on it as part of the build process. I base that on the fact they have at least one CNC and took orders for more of the guns after the preacher talked them up.

If a non-FFL builds a gun, there is no requirement for any markings or paperwork to sell it. Those regs, federally speaking, are for licensees.

I was told that I (as a non-FFL) can build an AK from a flat for myself, but if I ever go to sell it or give it away, I need to engrave a serial number on it and fill out the paperwork on the rifle then send it in. I can still do a FTF in state with it like any other long gun, or go through an FFL for out of state stuff, but it still needs a serial number to sell or give away.

[Bitter Bastard]

I was told that I (as a non-FFL) can build an AK from a flat for myself, but if I ever go to sell it or give it away, I need to engrave a serial number on it and fill out the paperwork on the rifle then send it in. I can still do a FTF in state with it like any other long gun, or go through an FFL for out of state stuff, but it still needs a serial number to sell or give away.

You were told wrong. Next time someone tells you this, ask them to cite the law so you can read it yourself "just to be sure you are doing it right." Or just plain say, "I don't believe you." Whatever, they won't be able to do it. Again, federally speaking. Not sure if WI has some screwed up law or not, but not that I've heard of.

FFL's routinely deal in guns with no serial number, mostly older guns before serial numbers were required but there are a few home builts floating around as well. There *are* laws against removing a serial number, possessing a gun with a removed number, etc, of course, that's not what I'm talking about.

What paperwork did you expect to fill out, and who were you going to send it to?

[Pinnacle]

They are an 07 with a SOT. form 2.

[Scratch]

What paperwork did you expect to fill out, and who were you going to send it to?

I don't know... I don't plan on selling my guns... but this is what I read from the ATF, maybe it just applies to SA rifles...:

Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92).
Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon

[chopper]

I would bet Gunsmoke has their manufacturer's FFL, so they had their company info and a serial number engraved on it as part of the build process. I base that on the fact they have at least one CNC and took orders for more of the guns after the preacher talked them up.

If a non-FFL builds a gun, there is no requirement for any markings or paperwork to sell it. Those regs, federally speaking, are for licensees.

I bought a black powder revolver kit in the 70's ( it had to be finished and assembled)it is not a muzzle loader, it was made by CVA and although it has the manufacture name does not have
a serial number, I had been thinking of selling it but is there some paperwork that has to be done? maybe someone with a FFL that has sold one could say what they had to do different if anything in order to sell. I see on gun broker that someone is selling one completely assembled factory new and it has a serial number. Or can I just advertise it and sell it as is with a bill of sale.

[Bitter Bastard]

What paperwork did you expect to fill out, and who were you going to send it to?

I don't know... I don't plan on selling my guns... but this is what I read from the ATF, maybe it just applies to SA rifles...:

Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92).
Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon

Can you provide a link to that page so I can read the entire document? I looked up the code cited here: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/ ... 478.92.htm and it specifically is for licensed manufacturers. As a non-licensee, those provisions don't apply. I'm not a lawyer but can read english. I'm willing to be educated on this issue if I'm wrong.

[Scratch]

What paperwork did you expect to fill out, and who were you going to send it to?

I don't know... I don't plan on selling my guns... but this is what I read from the ATF, maybe it just applies to SA rifles...:

Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92).
Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon

Can you provide a link to that page so I can read the entire document? I looked up the code cited here: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/ ... 478.92.htm and it specifically is for licensed manufacturers. As a non-licensee, those provisions don't apply. I'm not a lawyer but can read english. I'm willing to be educated on this issue if I'm wrong.

No I can't. If I ever need to sell one of my guns, I'll write to the ATF myself and figure it out. I can tell you that this letter was recieved from someone on this forum... hopefully he'll chime in...

[LESchwartz]

(A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a nonsporting semi-automatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

According to ATF firearms may be made by most non-licensed individuals for the personal use. Should such a firearm be sold (or otherwise transferred), it will need to be marked the same way manufacturers do. (Here's a handy link to an letter ATF sent me on the subject) Note that there is also no FAET tax due on firearms made for personal use (here's another handy web link, see question #4). There are tons of web resources in building up receivers from so-called "80% receivers", "flats", and even a solid chunk of metal. There are also numerous web postings of ATF rulings and letters outlining the limits of this hobby.

Right now, the most energetic portion of this hobby is building up semi-automatic AK rifles from de-milled com-block military weapons. There are any number of AK-related websites you can check out. There are also a fair number of more general home gunsmiths, so you can check out their web sites as well.

If you have specific questions, please feel free to reply here, email me, or check the "Legal" or "Build it yourself" forums on any of a number of firearms boards.

Larry

[Scratch]

Sorry Larry... I thought you were a member here.

[LESchwartz]

Sorry Larry... I thought you were a member here.

No biggie . . . I looked around when I joined today, and think I might stay around . . .

Larry

[Bitter Bastard]

Thanks for posting the letter. That is interesting, especially since it references regs related to FFL's and not non-licensees.

I wish we could trust ATF letters, in light of the Akins decision, the shoestring decision, and so on. There were letters related to those, too.

I'm not going to be a test case, but I'd guess this is another example of ATF making things up as they go that have no basis in actual law.

[LESchwartz]

Thanks for posting the letter. That is interesting, especially since it references regs related to FFL's and not non-licensees.

Most home gunsmiths mark receivers they make. First, it's just good practice in case the firearm is ever stolen. Second, receivers are typically heat treated which makes it difficult to mark later.

As to non-licenses being able to manufacture firearms for personal use: That's in ATF's published regs. It would be difficult for them to alter that decision without some sort of notice in the Federal Register. But as you say weirder things have happened with the ATF.

Larry