Front Sight Forum

[Pat]

That video reminds me of my visit there. Lots of smiling faces. Now I can't wait to go back!

[jp8775]

I've been going to Front Sight for about 5 years now. I usually attend twice a year....and even managed a third time this year.

I agree that the owner is OTT in regards to his e-mails, etc. That being said, you won't see him at FS so who cares? I sure don't. I can hit the delete key on my keyboard just as fast on his e-mails as I do for the ones from China wanting to sell me LED lights and winches for my Jeep.

As for the instructors, there are quite a few that work there full time. I know because I've asked. I've got a good friend who is a part time instructor....which means he is often times there 4 days a week.

The two courses I completed last month were both 4 day courses, the Advanced Tactical Shotgun course and the Precision Rifle 1 (aka, Sniper) course. If you are interested, click the links to read my after action reports on both courses....or other after action reports for other courses I've attended.

Other than a satisfied customer, I've got no other interest in Front Sight. I do believe it is a heck of a deal. FS has made quality training for the every day person....not just the folks who can afford $1300 per course like other companies offer.

Last month, during our shotgun course, a consultant was doing some HD video from his RC helicopter. The new video is available on youtube. Check it out....it gives a pretty good overview of several of the firearms disciplines taught at FS. The shotgun footage was taken during the course I was attending.

Your right the range instructors are full time, the range coaches are not for the most part. The pay is s**t. I have talked with many of them over the years. Jim Cass: the instructor who used to do the M16 course (he is no longer there but he was full time) said that it would be very hard to do this full time and make a living at it unless like him he had a military pension coming in too. I was told he recently lost two major players on his staff because of money. I.P. would rather have part time people pay them less and no benefits. But I agree with you, who cares I get what I want form it and it is top shelf. The bad thing is he has sold so many $250 life time memberships now (he brags constantly about thousands sold) I really do not see what is going to be his revenue stream for the future and how this will be sustainable. He said there are no more Lifetime memberships for sale. He has at least two multimillion dollar homes I have been told and staffers have said you have to see them to believe it, but then you will see where the money is going, big fire to keep fed. Go for training that’s what I do. My buddy is going next week with the Gander mountain instructor guys, he works there.

[jp8775]

I've been going to Front Sight for about 5 years now. I usually attend twice a year....and even managed a third time this year.

I agree that the owner is OTT in regards to his e-mails, etc. That being said, you won't see him at FS so who cares? I sure don't. I can hit the delete key on my keyboard just as fast on his e-mails as I do for the ones from China wanting to sell me LED lights and winches for my Jeep.

As for the instructors, there are quite a few that work there full time. I know because I've asked. I've got a good friend who is a part time instructor....which means he is often times there 4 days a week.

The two courses I completed last month were both 4 day courses, the Advanced Tactical Shotgun course and the Precision Rifle 1 (aka, Sniper) course. If you are interested, click the links to read my after action reports on both courses....or other after action reports for other courses I've attended.

Other than a satisfied customer, I've got no other interest in Front Sight. I do believe it is a heck of a deal. FS has made quality training for the every day person....not just the folks who can afford $1300 per course like other companies offer.

Last month, during our shotgun course, a consultant was doing some HD video from his RC helicopter. The new video is available on youtube. Check it out....it gives a pretty good overview of several of the firearms disciplines taught at FS. The shotgun footage was taken during the course I was attending.

I just watched the video, one example of hype. Every time they show shooting targets they are the turning targets. The only way you get to shoot at turning targets now is advanced tactical, so you need to graduate distinguished to get into that course. I took a 2 day and a 4 day advanced skill builder class and they did not offer to use them there. Also no more night shoots not even in those classes either.

[Pat]

I just watched the video, one example of hype. Every time they show shooting targets they are the turning targets. The only way you get to shoot at turning targets now is advanced tactical, so you need to graduate distinguished to get into that course. I took a 2 day and a 4 day advanced skill builder class and they did not offer to use them there. Also no more night shoots not even in those classes either.

Wow, have things changed! I did the four day combat handgun a few years ago (sounds like that name has changed, too). We had lots of turning targets, a night shoot and even a run through the fun house.

[arizona98tj]

The way I see it, if a person thinks that turning targets is what good training is about, I'm thinking that person really missed the point of what the training was all about.

For what it is worth, we didn't have turning targets for precision rifle either.

What is a 4 day advanced skill builder? I'm not familiar with that one.

I personally don't see the problem with not having night shoots on the introductory courses. IMHO, the student has more than enough to occupy their time. If I remember correctly, the night shoot was on the night of day #3 (seems they were when I was doing them but I could be wrong). That made for a really long day.....and given the next day was the skills evaluation, no need to be tired when you need to be at your peak. The last time I took practical rifle, I skipped the night shoot. I did attend the ATS night shoot last month.....it was frickin' cold....I should have skipped it.

[jp8775]

The way I see it, if a person thinks that turning targets is what good training is about, I'm thinking that person really missed the point of what the training was all about.

For what it is worth, we didn't have turning targets for precision rifle either.

What is a 4 day advanced skill builder? I'm not familiar with that one.

I personally don't see the problem with not having night shoots on the introductory courses. IMHO, the student has more than enough to occupy their time. If I remember correctly, the night shoot was on the night of day #3 (seems they were when I was doing them but I could be wrong). That made for a really long day.....and given the next day was the skills evaluation, no need to be tired when you need to be at your peak. The last time I took practical rifle, I skipped the night shoot. I did attend the ATS night shoot last month.....it was frickin' cold....I should have skipped it.

You did not have to take it if you did not want to. However there were always a lot of people like me who see the value in going to the basic classes over and over to make sure you did not miss anything. We really appreciated the night shoots. One instructor told me with the skill level of the new $250 students was what they were worried about “safety”. These students were coming to the night shoots too and should not have. As for turning targets, well we have to agree to disagree. Turning targets adds stress; a buzzer especially for someone who does not hear well is confusing. You are more likely to react to what you see than what you hear or police training is all wrong. They say to wear an electric head set so you can hear and mandate it for the class. The reason they do not have turning targets anymore and this again I was told by an instructor is because the new ranges do not have them, because they coast $20-60,000 per range or more with the traveling target option. It’s all or nothing can’t have some getting it and others not. When they trained everyone on them, they claimed it as an opportunity for you to get this time of training and nowhere else and that it’s better than a buzzer. They were right I do not know of any course that offered it to civilians. It was all about money I was told, they were looking at close to a ½ a million dollars to put them on all the rest of the lanes.

[arizona98tj]

I've no doubt that this past year's plethora of $250 memberships have brought in an entirely new demographic of student. I've got $4500 into my Diamond membership. I bought mine because I was (and still am) what I would consider a person that takes their shooting seriously. I valued the need for quality training enought to spend those kind of $$ to get it. Up until a year or two ago, a lot of the new Front Sight shooters/members were also serious shooters that were already quite familiar with gun handling. Folks that might expend an entire box of ammo during their annual trip to the range wasn't the type of person likely to spend thousands of dollars to obtain a membership at a training facility. That has now changed and with it, so have a few other things.

Enter the low cost membership.....and now you have opened FS to an entirely new segment of society that had never considered firearms training. You have folks showing up at class that have never handled a firearm before. That is a big leap between what I and most likely you are use to seeing. I would certainly agree that folks that are this "new" to handling a firearm shouldn't be doing so at a night shoot. On the plus side, FS is providing quality training, albeit not quite with the same bells and whistles, to a LOT more folks.

I find that turning targets do not add stress. In terms of stress....I'll stress more wondering if I made the time or not when the target is not turning. If one is worried about making DG....then a non-turning target is to your benefit. Why? If you are shooting turning targets and you are a little slow, you might very well either miss the target or not get the shot off. Either way, you are down 5 points. On non-turning targets, if you are late, you pick up a 3 point penalty. If you also blow the show, you drop 5 points. So....you now dropped 8 points on just one shot. As I already mentioned, that is more stressful for me knowing I can drop 8 points in just one shot rather than merely 5 points. I'm not sure if you were aware of that....if you are....and you still find turning targets to be more stressful, so be it.

As for someone that is hard of hearing and not hearing a buzzer with electronic ears on....I guess that is certainly possible. I'm not sure why a buzzer should be confusing. I use a range timer all the time when I practice. I also realize a new student wouldn't be use to using a range timer. But then again, should the new student automatically draw a gun and fire just because someone turned broadside to them? (OK, just kidding there) Beep...start shooting....
beep....stop shooting. If you don't here the stop beep, then you may have gone over time. It will keep you more focused on just how much time you have at the various distances.

FS has made some changes due to their expansion and the result of a new kind of FS student. No doubt some changes were made due to cost. I personally don't see much of an impact in regards to targets that do or do not turn and also the removal of the night shoot for beginning students. It is still quality training....and for me, it is about proper gun handling while being able to deliver consistently accurate shots on target....and now more than ever, available to people that never could have afforded it.

[jp8775]

I've no doubt that this past year's plethora of $250 memberships have brought in an entirely new demographic of student. I've got $4500 into my Diamond membership. I bought mine because I was (and still am) what I would consider a person that takes their shooting seriously. I valued the need for quality training enought to spend those kind of $$ to get it. Up until a year or two ago, a lot of the new Front Sight shooters/members were also serious shooters that were already quite familiar with gun handling. Folks that might expend an entire box of ammo during their annual trip to the range wasn't the type of person likely to spend thousands of dollars to obtain a membership at a training facility. That has now changed and with it, so have a few other things.

Enter the low cost membership.....and now you have opened FS to an entirely new segment of society that had never considered firearms training. You have folks showing up at class that have never handled a firearm before. That is a big leap between what I and most likely you are use to seeing. I would certainly agree that folks that are this "new" to handling a firearm shouldn't be doing so at a night shoot. On the plus side, FS is providing quality training, albeit not quite with the same bells and whistles, to a LOT more folks.

I find that turning targets do not add stress. In terms of stress....I'll stress more wondering if I made the time or not when the target is not turning. If one is worried about making DG....then a non-turning target is to your benefit. Why? If you are shooting turning targets and you are a little slow, you might very well either miss the target or not get the shot off. Either way, you are down 5 points. On non-turning targets, if you are late, you pick up a 3 point penalty. If you also blow the show, you drop 5 points. So....you now dropped 8 points on just one shot. As I already mentioned, that is more stressful for me knowing I can drop 8 points in just one shot rather than merely 5 points. I'm not sure if you were aware of that....if you are....and you still find turning targets to be more stressful, so be it.

As for someone that is hard of hearing and not hearing a buzzer with electronic ears on....I guess that is certainly possible. I'm not sure why a buzzer should be confusing. I use a range timer all the time when I practice. I also realize a new student wouldn't be use to using a range timer. But then again, should the new student automatically draw a gun and fire just because someone turned broadside to them? (OK, just kidding there) Beep...start shooting....
beep....stop shooting. If you don't here the stop beep, then you may have gone over time. It will keep you more focused on just how much time you have at the various distances.

FS has made some changes due to their expansion and the result of a new kind of FS student. No doubt some changes were made due to cost. I personally don't see much of an impact in regards to targets that do or do not turn and also the removal of the night shoot for beginning students. It is still quality training....and for me, it is about proper gun handling while being able to deliver consistently accurate shots on target....and now more than ever, available to people that never could have afforded it.

I agree that it’s great to have them around providing the service they do, quality training at an affordable price. Whether or not you feel turning targets are a benefit, you are best to practice for the purpose of self defense on what is as close to what you will be doing as possible. That being said visual response or sight is closer. Again or police training has been wrong for all these years. F.S. use to claim and I agree with them that that was why they used turning target. They are no more because of money and the added expense to have them in all the ranges. I.P. has not lived up to most of his promises except the ones that benefit him the most. There are still no lockers for the first family members, so they can leave ammo and guns there the list goes on. He only put in the toilets he promised since he opened because he was threatened by handicapped people for not providing adequate bathroom facilities. He only does what he has to. Look at your membership, look at the list of stuff you will receive when you become a member, how much did you get. This is just piss poor business practice, when members really started to complain, those of us (paid thousands for our memberships) he thanked us by loading the place up with students that even scare the instructors sometimes, they don’t listen and are talking so much that you hear “quiet” every one about 10 times an hour each day. Why they only have $250 in it and unlike what it was when I started there, serious people serious about training it is no more. The last 2 times I was there, people just left after a couple days. The instructors said they see that a lot. That’s because they have so little in it. I you and I agree for the most part. Thank you for the exchange.

[arizona98tj]

And thanks to you too. Always nice to have a friendly exchange of info and ideas.

Best regards,
Stu

[gyrfalcon]

...The last 2 times I was there, people just left after a couple days. The instructors said they see that a lot. That’s because they have so little in it. I you and I agree for the most part. Thank you for the exchange.

Are you saying the training they provide is no longer any good or useful? I'm wondering why someone would leave a class they've traveled and paid for.

[selurcspi]

...The last 2 times I was there, people just left after a couple days. The instructors said they see that a lot. That’s because they have so little in it. I you and I agree for the most part. Thank you for the exchange.

Are you saying the training they provide is no longer any good or useful? I'm wondering why someone would leave a class they've traveled and paid for.

Believe it or not, some people are not committed to learning, but rather just checking the class out. There is the occasional one that cannot accept the correction of bad habits and says the heck with this and goes to Vegas to play the tables instead!
You might not believe it, but these classes are hard work for 10 hours a day for 4 days!

[jp8775]

...The last 2 times I was there, people just left after a couple days. The instructors said they see that a lot. That’s because they have so little in it. I you and I agree for the most part. Thank you for the exchange.

Are you saying the training they provide is no longer any good or useful? I'm wondering why someone would leave a class they've traveled and paid for.

I saw a group that was told to stop talking and screwing around eventually leave and did not come back. When they are disruptive it hurts the whole class and is not safe. They thought this was a fun day like at Valley Fair. It not it’s serious, it’s about guns. If they had thousands in their memberships, they would have been more serious but they had only $250. That was exactly what the instructor said when ask about why they left. They told him this was not what they thought it was, they wanted to have fun. There is a new type of member there now. You need to get out of the basic classes asap, these guys never make it beyond the 2-4 day basic class.

[arizona98tj]

...The last 2 times I was there, people just left after a couple days. The instructors said they see that a lot. That’s because they have so little in it. I you and I agree for the most part. Thank you for the exchange.

Are you saying the training they provide is no longer any good or useful? I'm wondering why someone would leave a class they've traveled and paid for.

I just took two classes last month, Advanced Tactical Shotgun and Precision Rifle 1. Both require DG (distinguished graduate) from lower level courses else you can't register for the course. There were 13 students in the shotgun course and about 15 in the rifle course. All were top shooters, IMO....and it was a blast (literally) to share the range with them....not to mention the $$ in the hardware and support gear that we all came with. The course content was very good, I learned a lot, and look forward to attending the course in the future.

I've heard others refer to these "less serious" students as the WalMart crowd. You won't seem them in the advanced classes, as was previously mentioned. They don't have the commitment to learn what is necessary to advance. They will grow tired of it, assuming they actually make it to a course, and finally stop coming....much like buying a membership at the local health club. They operate on what is called an underutilized business model....as does FS, per Naish's business lecture. In the mean time, I'll continue to attend several times a year, as I've done since becoming a member 5 years ago. Besides that, I've got about a $1600 credit left at the ProShop I need to lessen.

[jp8775]

Don't worry JP.... In response to a valued member such as yourself being banned, I'm going to start an alternative forum at frontsighter.com

I hope the masses from frontsight.com will follow suit and abandon that forum to join the new one in an effort to show unity and solidarity.

Have you got this site up yet?

[jp8775]

Don't worry JP.... In response to a valued member such as yourself being banned, I'm going to start an alternative forum at frontsighter.com

I hope the masses from frontsight.com will follow suit and abandon that forum to join the new one in an effort to show unity and solidarity.

Have you got this site up yet?

Have you started a FS forum yet?