Safety -- it's all a matter of definition?

[Rags]

Yesterday, while I was at the Oakdale range, I was chatting with another guy on the line. I asked him a question about his gun, a stainless Smith revolver, and he turned toward me so the muzzle pointed at me.

I said, "Uhhh, downrange, please," and gestured for him to point it that way.

He frowned and said, "Well, the action's open," pointing to the cylinder, which was indeed open. Now, we all know that the action being open doesn't somehow make the gun safe to point at somebody (unless you're in the process of cleaning it, which is a special case) -- or do we?

It appears that one man's "unsafe" is another man's "Aw, that's okay."

[phorvick]

In general I agree that there is no such thing as being too safe. I believe that near 100% of all gun accidents are done with "unloaded guns". There is a point...and it is hard to articulate...where an expressed concern of safety can be over zealous. For example, if you have seen some of Oleg Volk's great posters, he has on occassion had a poster with the gun pointed at the camera. Some folks get all bent out of shape about that....but, how is that any different than watching any movie or TV program where the actor points/sweeps the obvious camera area.

My point is that yes, safety is a 100% necessity. I can conjure up some scenarios where it is over zealous, but your description did not, for me, fall into that arena.

Edit: The one area that does seem to me as over zealous is when you have a training gun, everyone knows it is a training gun, and someone objects to the training gun being pointed at others or themselves. The whole purpose of a training gun is to be able to present some task or skill that might involve pointing or sweeping and doing it with a hunk of inert plastic/wood etc. Some demonstrations require that to be done. I suspect other instructors also incorporate some basic draw or disarming techniques into their classes. A perfect training gun scenario.

[e5usmc]

I'd be upset to be covered by a gun with the action open as well... There is just no need for it.

As far as the photos and such go, I've thought about that as well. It's very possible to take a picture without someone standing behind the camera. No way to tell how often this is the case with the pictures of the muzzle that are out there though...

There is no such thing as too safe...

[ttousi]

When they sweep you with an open action it becomes habit esp if nobody corrects them. Sooner or later it will closed/loaded.

Point it out!

[JoeH]

Rags-

I think that you're right on. Remember the four rules of gun safety and stick to them.

Was it necessary to point the gun at you? No

You can't be too careful.

[cmj685]

It strikes me that there is both objective and subjective safety matters that we need to be concerned with--not only ensuring that the gun is absolutely safe but always allowing for others to feel confidently safe in our presence. That is, not only should the four rules always be followed to ensure objective safety (the gun cannot go possibly go off), but we must never do anything that threatens another. Sweeping another person, even if I know my gun is safe, may well make them feel threatened, since they can't know if the gun is safe or not. Therefore it is not something that should be done. Now it is probably quite another thing if two of us are working together on a gun which we both know is unloaded and safe--then there is no question in either of our minds. But to sweep a stranger in a public place, no matter how safe we know our gun is, rightly invites some scathing rebuke, or at least a really dirty look. Consideration of others and myself, both physical and mental well-being, is what safety is all about IMHO.

[Rags]

Now it is probably quite another thing if two of us are working together on a gun which we both know is unloaded and safe--then there is no question in either of our minds.

Yes.

This is one of those areas that seems gray but really is not. When I take my revolver to a friend's workshop so he can help me remove a bullet stuck in the bore, I know and he knows that there are times when the gun will be pointed at one of us, and at times pretty much between the eyes. Can't be helped.

That is a special case. The basic rule is being violated -- but for a reason, and unavoidably.

But the range situation I described above is not in any gray area. That was wrong, less because it is actually unsafe for him to do that (the cylinder was out of the frame) than because it violates the first rule: Always pointed in a safe direction, except when there is an actual need for it to pointed in an unsafe direction.

[Rags]

The one area that does seem to me as over zealous is when you have a training gun, everyone knows it is a training gun, and someone objects to the training gun being pointed at others or themselves.

Absolutely.

"Okay, this is a bright green see-through plastic gun. I'm going to show you. . ."

"Hey, don't point that thing at me!"

Geez.

[Srigs]

Good job on pointing it out.

[Stradawhovious]

I think the first rule of firearm safety (never point your gun at anything you don't want to destroy) Is worded correctly. It doesn't say "don't point your gun at anything you don't want to destroy unless it's unloaded" for a reason. If anyone at the range decided to introduce me to the business end of their firearm, loaded or not, I would raise a hell of a stink
I think that ttousi is right in saying that these actions become habit, and sooner or later a very disasterous accident could be the result. There have been a few times that I have had to correct behavior at the range (clearing stovepipes with finger on the trigger and the barrel pointed God knows where etc.etc.) and I have never NEVER felt that I was overstepping my bounds. Keep doing what you are doing, and help promote safety whenever you can.

[macphisto]

At the last steel shoot, someone told an interesting story about getting a gun pointed at him when he was at Bill's. He appreciated it so much that he decided to return the favor.

[hammAR]

I don't care how you justify it, that is not the way to do it and is totally inappropriate...............

IF I accidentally swept someone and they decided to reciprocate intentionally,
they had better hope that it is made by Hershey's...........

.

[MsT]

Rags -- was this during public shooting hours, or members only ? I've printed your post and will bring it up at the meeting tonight. If it was during public shooting hours, our range officers should have been all over the guy. I had a member point his shotgun at me last week on the trap range and his response was the same (it's open and it's empty) ... I doubt that he'll do it to me again.

When things like this happen out there, it needs to be brought to someone's attention .. the range officer, or the Lead person in the clubhouse, or someone on the Board. We want Oakdale to be around for a long time ...

[cobb]

We have had safety violations at our local club in the past also. Probably the biggest is shooting a firearm in an area not designated for that firearm, such as a pistol on the shotgun range or unsafe handling.

Several years ago a person had a target set up in such a way that it was not safe. I pointed this out to him and he was almost upset that I should question what he was doing and if it was a safe practice or not. I told him to either change what he was doing or loose his membership. He said that he had friends and that maybe they would all just drop their membership and not come back, I suppose he figured that money talks.
I said great, if he had 100 friends like him, I hope they would all leave the club, we would gladly take the several thousands of dollars in lost membership if it would keep just one person from getting hurt or killed.
He didn't have anything to say after that and I don't think I have seen him in the years since.

[MsT]

I agree, Cobb.

When we're open to the public, the rule is that the Range Officers are in charge. Period. Last year, we had a member exhibiting some unsafe handling with a handgun down on our 25 yard range. The Range Officer asked him to watch what he was doing, and he challenged the RO. He was finally asked to leave. Now, it was bad that he thought he was above being corrected, but it was also bad that he argued with the RO in front of public shooters, making the whole club look bad.

I got an "incident report" via e-mail from the RO that evening, and a phone call from our Caretaker, who also rides herd on the ROs during public shooting.

I sent registered letters to the 3 ROs on duty that day and to the member, and they all had to appear at a Board Meeting.

It's always interesting how the memory of an "incident" is recorded in your brain. When the Board heard both "sides" of the incident, we questioned if the 4 of them were really in the same place at that time !

It ended up with a reprimand and a warning that if another incident occurred, his membership would not be renewed. We also feel that the dues of someone who won't follow the rules of safety is not needed.