First Gun

[TomS]

I would also go with 9mm. For those who say not to use a .22 for defense, read this: http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... ad-22-lrs/

Good article, I have seen a lot of others like it. While self-protection is a consideration on this purchase, it is not what is driving the decision making at this point. This is intended to be a good place to start and see how shooting goes, if it turns out to be something I enjoy, then I would likely consider adding a 9mm or something else. The big driver right now is something that is fun, easy to use, and lower initial investment.

I filled out the paperwork last Friday for the permit to buy so that should be here in the next week or so. We are also planning a family outing to Bills next weekend to test out a few guns and hope to have some clear direction on what to buy after that.

Right now I am planning to rent Ruger MKII 22LR , Ruger SR22 (if available) or Walther P22 & maybe a Sig Mosquito 22LR. Does this look like a good selection or would you recommend renting something else?

I will probably stop by the shop and look at a few guns this week so I have a good idea of what I will rent.

[Snowgun]

I would also go with 9mm. For those who say not to use a .22 for defense, read this: http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... ad-22-lrs/

Good article, I have seen a lot of others like it. While self-protection is a consideration on this purchase, it is not what is driving the decision making at this point. This is intended to be a good place to start and see how shooting goes, if it turns out to be something I enjoy, then I would likely consider adding a 9mm or something else. The big driver right now is something that is fun, easy to use, and lower initial investment.

I filled out the paperwork last Friday for the permit to buy so that should be here in the next week or so. We are also planning a family outing to Bills next weekend to test out a few guns and hope to have some clear direction on what to buy after that.

Right now I am planning to rent Ruger MKII 22LR , Ruger SR22 (if available) or Walther P22 & maybe a Sig Mosquito 22LR. Does this look like a good selection or would you recommend renting something else?

I will probably stop by the shop and look at a few guns this week so I have a good idea of what I will rent.

A MKII is a target pistol, and therefore it is in a different class than the other three. If you are including that, consider adding a browning buckmark into the mix, as it is also a target pistol of good quality.

Pretty much, you need to figure if you are going to go with a "target" kind of .22, or a "tactical" kind of .22. Obviously the targets will be more expensive, more reliable, and will shoot better, etc. However, they use much different ergonomics and mechanisms than the tactical. Shooting a tactical .22 will be much better practice for the "feel" and controls one will see in a combat/carry gun, should you decide to purchase one later.

You can even find .22's that are almost exact replica's of their 9mm/.40 cousins. The M&P 22lr and Sig 226 22lr come to mind. Almost can't tell them apart from the larger calibers.

Also, some platforms have conversion kits that shoot .22. You can buy a 1911 or a CZ 75, and then ALSO buy the .22 conversion kit that fits on the gun. This way you are shooting the same gun, only in .22. This is the expensive way to go, since most conversion kits run about $300, and you have to have the regular version of the gun to start with.

[Guerrilla1979]

I have to disagree with snowgun that a target pistol will be more reliable. IMO target pistols have tighter tolerances,

which are great for greater accuracy, but not so great for reliability.

I agree with snowgun in getting a CZ75. IMO the are one of the top five 9mm battle pistols available.

It would be awesome to have a .22 conversion kit for it, although I do not know how reliable these are.

There is a gun show coming up on March 17/18 at the state fair grounds. That would be a great place to hold hundreds of

different guns. A target pistol with less reliability but greater accuracy is a great pistol to learn pistol shooting fundamentals.

For the price, I'd rather have a target .22 and a battle type 9mm pistol.

Ruger Mark III pistols are extremely popular with the target shooting crowd.

Here's a great website: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php I have bought a few firearms from them,

the prices are almost never beat by anyone. All the firearms shown are shown with shipping included. You can have them sent to a local

FFL dealer and he will transfer to you for $25. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

[TomS]

A MKII is a target pistol, and therefore it is in a different class than the other three. If you are including that, consider adding a browning buckmark into the mix, as it is also a target pistol of good quality.

Pretty much, you need to figure if you are going to go with a "target" kind of .22, or a "tactical" kind of .22. Obviously the targets will be more expensive, more reliable, and will shoot better, etc. However, they use much different ergonomics and mechanisms than the tactical. Shooting a tactical .22 will be much better practice for the "feel" and controls one will see in a combat/carry gun, should you decide to purchase one later.

At this point I am leaning heavily toward the Ruger SR22 (lot of great reviews) because it would have carry potential. If I decide to get a carry permit I could use that gun until I decide if carrying a gun fit my life style. If carrying a gun works out, I could get a better self-defense gun.

But I also want I want to try some variety so I have a point of comparison so I will also try a target gun too. If a target gun is more fun to shoot, I could go that route too. Is there something other than “target” and “tactical” that I should consider that costs under $400?

[Cadet]

Ellis did a great job outlining everything but Id have to disagree with his anti- Keltec advice, Ive shot 2 different keltec PF9s and they were both fun to shoot and reliable and are very inexpensive, and also are a great option for concealed carry!

[Snowgun]

I have to disagree with snowgun that a target pistol will be more reliable. IMO target pistols have tighter tolerances,

which are great for greater accuracy, but not so great for reliability.

While this is true, I was referring to the fact that target pistols are built like a brick **** house, and they will keep on rocking for YEARS with proper maintenance, unlike many zinc and aluminum tactical pistols. Essentially reliability in the long run.

The CZ .22 kadet kit is one of the best conversion kits i've shot. Paired with a cz 75 it would be a great set to have.

[Heretical1]

Ditto about Bills GS. Don't buy a .22 as a self-defense weapon. Rent it, then move on. .22's are best used for competition target shooting and assassinations at close range. Consider this:

"I have serious reservations on using the .45 ACP on dangerous animals. While working for the sheriff’s office in 2001 I was attacked by a large angry rottweiler that soaked up round after round of 185 gr hollowpoints. In the end the dog had been hit eight times, chest, shoulders 2x, upper front legs, and snout before he backed off. None of the bullets made full penetration. If you believe something is knocked off its feet when hit by a .45 Im sorry it just don’t happen that way. I was a tried and true .45 guy until that day. This did motivate the department to switch to a 230gr +p round but at this time there have been no other shootings with the new ammunition.” [Emphasis added.]

–a Law Enforcement Officer, North Carolina

I've owned S&W .38/.357, Colt .45 ACP, Ruger .45 LC/.454 Casull and CZ 9mm semi-auto. Ruger revolvers and CZ semi-auto's are my preference. The CZ P-01 has passed some of the most rigorous performance tests in use.

A first gun should optimize reliability and situational applicability. The most reliable choice is a revolver. They never fail to feed or eject properly, and they never jam. Just be sure not to drop them, because bad forcing cone/chamber timing can cause hot lead shavings to come out the side of the gun. To apply well to multiple ranges, but still be concealable, choose a barrel length between 2.5 and 4 inches. The standard/magnum combination is necessarily a little bigger, and hence, less concealable, but if it's your only carry weapon, it's application versatility triumphs. If it's going to be your secondary weapon, and concealability is that important, consider a 5-shot capacity.

With proper (advanced) training and practice, you can win a gun fight with two, close-range opponents, provided that:

You keep your nerve and concentrate on shot placement.
You start your DA trigger pull between targets so that it coincides with secondary target acquisition.

I highly recommend Massad Ayoob's "StressFire" Vol. I of Gunfighting for Police: Advanced Tactics and Techniques -- ISBN 978-0-936279-03-09.

Also, check out the Ron Szpond technique. There are different caliber combination choices to be sure. Just be certain that both guns are equally accessible, and that the smallest caliber (smallest recoil) gun is in your weak hand.

See also my post on home defense weapon selection considerations -->> http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/4945-9 ... ost1367896

The lower the caliber and the muzzle velocity (generally), the faster the target re-acquisition. The smaller projectile may have less foot/pounds of energy, but they generally have higher sectional density; hence, better penetration.

45 ACP Nosler JHP 185 D-Tap***1225 FPS 616 Ft. Lb.
40 S&W 155gr 4" BL 1205 FPS 499 Ft. Lb.
9mm Luger 124gr +P D-Tap*** 1310 FPS 473 Ft. Lb.
.38 +p BJHP 125 D-Tap*** 1175 FPS 383 Ft. Lb.

***Double Tap Ammunition. Getting into the 357 Sig zone.


"The heavier and more narrow the bullet is, the higher its sectional density will be." "... [A]ll other variables being equal, a bullet with a higher Sectional Density will:"

Lose less energy and speed in flight
Drop less on the way to the target
Penetrate more effectively into a target

Penetration is a determined by a bullet’s construction, sectional density (mass/diameter) and momentum (~mass*velocity). The greater the SD and M, the better the penetration (with appropriate bullet construction as a given here, but is a discussion topic for another time).

.45 ACP+P
230gr .452″ bullet@1010fps = SD 0.161, M 33
185gr .452″ bullet@1225fps = SD 0.129, M 32

.40S&W
180gr .400″ bullet@1100fps = SD 0.161, M 28
165gr .400″ bullet@1200fps = SD 0.147, M 28

.357 Magnum
200gr .357″ bullet@1200fps = SD 0.224, M 34

See also, Chuck Hawk's partial sectional density listing for handgun calibers -->> http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd_handgun.htm

Save magnum rounds for last shots and barrier penetration.

Check out this ballistic charts to compare stats -->> http://www.best9mm.com/9mmballistics.html http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm_vs_.38special.php

Check out these sites for ammo selection -->> http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defen ... /index.htm http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Self ... nLoads.htm