gun sale hypothetical thinker....

[Shipyard]

dealers, internet armchair lawyers etc... whoever wants to chime in really - i have a question about a long and detailed conversation i got into tonight over beers that left everyone stumped.

completely hypothetical scenario: if you had a gun for sale, and a resident of another state says they want to buy it. you say: would have to be transferred through a dealer to be on the up and up. potential buyer says: my son is a resident of the state in which you reside even though i am not. i'll give you his number, just sell it to him. deal is set up and transaction is made.

question 1: have you as a resident done anything wrong? after all, you sold to a legal buyer. however, you realize that there is a possibility that son is more than likely going to just give it to dad.

question 2: does your inkling of something fishy about to take place put you at risk of anything? after all, son may actually be the person who owns this for their lifetime. you do not have any way to confirm or deny that anyone else may ever own this firearm or what they intend to do with it. after all - again - you sold to a legally viable buyer according to the laws in the state in which you reside.

question 3: IF son then turned around and gave gun to dad in a different state - as family members - has son done anything wrong ?

question 4: IF anything illegal HAS taken place by son giving said gun to dad - how would that be any different than a LEGAL buyer using the gun you sold them to commit an armed robbery? you had no idea they intended to do harm with said gun any more than a licensed FFL who did a NICS check would have - so, can yo be put in any trouble for the actions of another later?

brought up some really good discussion. thought i'd share the love

[GeekyGunman]

This would fall under straw buyer...

If you sell a gun to somebody who openly admitted that it's not actually for them (even if they are a legal buyer), you're breaking the law. However... I don't think it's a felony for the seller, only the buyer and ultimate possessor.
For dealers, the ATF will revoke your license for doing it, but I don't know that it's ever been tested for small private sales?

Culpability for crimes committed is pretty much a no. You might catch something for the act of blatant intentional or clearly known sale to a prohibited person (like posting a listing on craigslist that says "felons welcome!"), but not for the crimes themselves. A really zealous DA might try to put you up as an accomplis or under a similar conspiracy charge, but that's pretty unlikely to stick unless you knew some details about the crime they were about to commit.

As for crossing state lines, an FFL is always required. Always.

[Shipyard]

rememebr the senario:

the out of state person did not say 'hey, this person will buy it and give it to me..."

the in state buyer did not say "hey, i'm going to buy this and give it so someone out of state..."

but the situation ALLUDES to this being the case.

i guess it boils down to at what point is it a straw sale? is the inference as such reasonable cause to back away? after all, it has not been admitted to, but the circumstances suggest it.

where do you draw the line on it.... after all - ANY buyer you meet in a parking lot somewhere - full ID and permit in hand - could in an hour turn around and sell to an out of state buyer without your knowledge if they were just quiet about it... you can't control other people you know

[Iasca]

From an FFL's perspective, inference of a straw purchase is plenty of reason to deny a sale. Remember, people that are intentionally making a straw purchase normally know they're doing something wrong. They're not going to openly tell the dealer what they're up to. If the dealer thinks something's up, they should refuse the sale.

Some of this applies to private sales, and some doesn't. Good rule of thumb would be that if you're not 100% sure about what's going on with the transaction, you should find another buyer.

[GeekyGunman]

the out of state person did not say 'hey, this person will buy it and give it to me..."

Ehh... if the out of state person says they want to buy it, and only after you insist that it goes through an FFL do they mention the in state person?
That's a little more than allusion or suggestion, you can make a pretty clear logical inference.

Where you can draw the line is, that if you were in court and you told that story, would a person of average intelligence say that they would have thought it was a straw sale?
I would say yes, if I was on that jury.

If Mr.Outofstate was smart, he would just hang up and tell his son to call you directly and make no mention of him. The two of them are still committing a felony (two actually), but it leaves you out of it.

++
Just as an addendum, provided neither state has gun registration laws, the odds of being caught are slim to none. Being successfully prosecuted without you providing self incriminating testimony make the odds even slimmer.
I would say your greatest risk would be if the guy was actually an AFT agent running a honeypot, or if the conversation was recorded. Both of which are again also pretty crazy slim odds.
Getting busted for something like this would be like winning the reverse lottery, but it is still technically against the law.

[usnret]

It isn't really a Straw Buy.
A Straw buy is where a person who can not legally have a firearm gets someone to purchase said firearm for them.

[Iasca]

It isn't really a Straw Buy.
A Straw buy is where a person who can not legally have a firearm gets someone to purchase said firearm for them.

A straw buy is where ANY person purchases the firearm on behalf of another.

[Iasca]

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

From the ATF website. Aimed at dealer education, but should clarify some things.

Normally a straw purchase would be defined as a purchase on behalf of a person unable to complete the transaction themselves. Federal firearms laws change the definition slightly to include ANY proxy used, whether or not the end recipient is an eligible purchaser.

[45Badger]

Here's how I'm gonna handle it-

"I sold all my guns to a nice guy in Minneapolis. He said he was an engineer. He seemed to have a lot of tattoos and really like beer and old Saturday night specials. Gee officer, I have no idea what he did with them after I sold them."

[snlit3]

Here's how I'm gonna handle it-

"I sold all my guns to a nice guy in Minneapolis. He said he was an engineer. He seemed to have a lot of tattoos and really like beer and old Saturday night specials. Gee officer, I have no idea what he did with them after I sold them."

Pretty much.

[Rip Van Winkle]

Just to add fuel to the fire. I bought a handgun from a local prominent law professor who posts on another board. I was upfront telling him I was buying it for a gift for my returning Marine son. He told me "as long as it is a gift to a direct family member, it's not a straw purchase".

[GeekyGunman]

Just to add fuel to the fire. I bought a handgun from a local prominent law professor who posts on another board. I was upfront telling him I was buying it for a gift for my returning Marine son. He told me "as long as it is a gift to a direct family member, it's not a straw purchase".

Yep, the ATF specifically mentions gifts as being allowed and not a straw purchase.

In this example though, that would be like if the Son had called in and said "well gee, I'm looking for a nice gift for my paw" instead of "hang on, let me call my son to so I can get around the law."
Also, even for gifts, if the giftee is out-of-state you still need an FFL. There isn't any exception in the Federal law for out-of-state transfers (even if you show up in person and are given it, it's so long as you aren't a legal resident in the same state).

[jdege]

Also, even for gifts, if the giftee is out-of-state you still need an FFL. There isn't any exception in the Federal law for out-of-state transfers (even if you show up in person and are given it, it's so long as you aren't a legal resident in the same state).

If you're selling it to someone in-state, who intends to give it as a gift to someone out-state, the guy you're selling it to needs to go through an FFL, you don't.

[Cuda66]

It isn't really a Straw Buy.
A Straw buy is where a person who can not legally have a firearm gets someone to purchase said firearm for them.

A straw buy is where ANY person purchases the firearm on behalf of another.

Not true.

I can buy a firearm for someone else as a gift, as long as that person can legally have the firearm.

[carver952]

Its important to understand both state and federal law:

MN A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who intentionally transfers a pistol or military-style assault weapon
if the person knows that the transferee is ineligible or disqualified from possesing.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.7141

Federal Law allows a person to transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his/her State,
if he/she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited.
Family member can truthfully complete the Form 4473 as the actual purchaser because he would take title then transfer the firearm as a gift.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... 5300-2.pdf

For a private sale, to someone I don't know, I use this form for the buyer to state they are eligible.
http://www.beararms.com/PDF/FTUP.pdf

Bottom line, with the FTUP form, I am not concerned about a future gift to immediate family members as long as buyer did not directly tell me he was passing it to a prohibited party.