*Serious* Selling firearms w/o license for profit

[wildfan1]

Why can't it be both? I think TS is doing a public service, and as an FFL I am also upset that some a-hole is doing what I am doing, but doing it illegally, and without putting in the time and effort for a license.

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2

[XDM45]

I think that the OP (Tromix) is trying to say that this guy is running a serious risk of getting his door kicked in and all that comes with that. I have seen the ATF in action like this - not pretty.

While I certainly respect your opinion, and there is nothing wrong with it... You have to be careful of who you do business with especially with regulated commodities - constitutional or not it is the law of the land. I think that is the point of the post...

I have to agree with that.

There's a well-known saying "Overemphasize Safety" and I don't think you can't overemphasize legality either.

DISCLAIMER: I am now a lawyer and the below is not legal advice.

One must remember that we have an American LEGAL System and NOT an American JUSTICE System because what is legal is not always just, and what is just isn't always legal. What is right morally, ethically, personally, may or may not be right LEGALLY. So too is it true that this is an old argument about the Spirit of the Law (the intent in which a law is written) and the Letter of the Law (what the law says verbatim). Of course other things affect law such as case law which can sometimes sent a precedence, or if the judge, DA, jury member, etc is having a bad day.... so what's my point? Do not get on the wrong side of the law if at all possible. If in doubt, do NOT do it - whatever "it" is.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Arrogance against the law is just asking for a legal you-know-what kicking.

I'm sure that many of us a agree on what would be common sense, etc, but then we run into the is-ought dilemma of "This is how it OUGHT to be, but this is how it IS." As much as we like to think that we are innocent until proven guilty, the American media and public isn't on board with that.

I say err on the side of paranoia.

Just my 0.02 worth.

[grousemaster]

Whoever the FFL is has to have grown suspicious, or have knowledge that he is transferring the firearms as part of a straw sale. Big no-no

[grousemaster]

Holland&Holland wrote:
There is much wrong with this post.
Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

Did those contractors not win bids because there competition was breaking the law? Or were they lost fair and square due to the laws of the market? Completely different scenarios.

I think it's a valid warning, I sure wouldn't want to end up buying one of these lowers only to find out later that the ATF is going to need it back. Why jump to the defense of the guy that is committing the felonies here?

Instead of jumping on Atomic Tactical for issuing the warning, put yourself in his shoes. Say you're a licensed contractor....who spends lots of cash on licensing/insurance, etc.....and then some fly by night folks are under bidding you on jobs but operating illegally, wouldn't you be upset?

[Thunderjohn]

There is much wrong with this post.
Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

I don't think it matters what business you're in, when someone is skirting the law (whether we think it's a valid law or not)
people have a right to be ticked.

I used to lose bids to other companies that didn't have insurance, hired illegal workers, etc. and it bothered me.
I don't think Tromix is out of line to warn people or to be ticked.

[XDM45]

@grousemaster and @Thunderjohn

I wholeheartedly agree with your last posts.

[Tromix-Saiga-12]

There is an unlicensed individual from the Bloomington/Savage/Shakopee area that has been ordering PSA & ECG (Palmetto State Armory & East Coast Guns) AR-15 lower receivers in bulk & reselling them on Armslist.com. He specifically indicates he is 'not a dealer' & 'has sold xx amount'. I assume he is using an FFL services in the aforementioned areas for the initial transfer. A customer came into the office today & brought it to my attention. Anyway, whoever the unlicensed individual is, they have no idea how fooked they are. It is a serious fed crime for dealing in firearms without a license. The ATF will eventually audit the FFL where the transfers took place; see that "Joe Blow/eric holder" ordered & transferred all these lowers. They'll proceed to make photo copies of the bound book, knock on the transferree's door, shoot their dog(s) & ..... They will then ask him/her to produce the lower receivers on-site. Obviously he/she won't be able to. BOOM!!!

I personally couldn't care less what this person is doing, as I am not the BATFE, but he obviously has no idea how bad he has fooked himself. There simply is no way out of it unless they were able to track down 9 out of 10 buyers & buy them back. For further proof, read his for-sale ads & you can see how oblivious he is to the laws & regs:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/432489/bl ... and-new---
http://www.armslist.com/posts/425604/bl ... -last-one-

I am a steadfast atheist, but may God help his soul.....ignorance is not an excuse.

There is much wrong with this post.

Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

Holland&Holland,

I spend a lot of time on arfcom, hence the 'kick in your door & shoot your dog' reference. It's a running joke that often gets posted by users in the forums there.

With that said, reading is fundamental. You apparently missed the part where I said I personally couldn't care less what this individual is doing. Believe me, some guy selling a couple dozen lowers is not a threat to our bottom line. The posts have since been deleted by the seller, but he specifically stated things like "I sold 9 of these last week" & "I am not a dealer. There is no paperwork or tax". These statements clearly indicate the seller is naive & oblivious to the fact he is in serious violation of federal law. Now, did I turn him into law enforcement? No, I did not. The last thing I want to see is someone have their life destroyed because they had no idea that what they were doing was illegal.

[XDM45]

The last thing I want to see is someone have their life destroyed because they had no idea that what they were doing was illegal.

If one is ignorant of gun laws; one is negligent.
If one is negligent, one should not be anywhere NEAR a gun. No selling of it in part or in whole. No handling it. No shooting it. Nothing at all. Zero Tolerance.

There is no excuse.

Likewise, when he posted about there's no tax, he's not a dealer, come on... he knew better. Unless someone is born yesterday, they know about "sin taxes" and that certain things and industries are heavily regulated and taxed such as guns, gambling (also called "Gaming"), Alcohol, Tobacco, Pharmaceuticals (legal drugs), illegal drugs, Import/Export of encryption, etc.

[illbits]

I greatly appreciate Tromix posting this thread. Frankly when some prick exploits the law WE will be the ones who pay the price. Imagine if this type of crap was common, we would all be transferring our used guns through FFL's. Thanks Tromix.

[XDM45]

I greatly appreciate Tromix posting this thread. Frankly when some prick exploits the law WE will be the ones who pay the price. Imagine if this type of crap was common, we would all be transferring our used guns through FFL's. Thanks Tromix.

I think it's good that it was posted (here), but that's only half the battle... many people notice things but don't report it. We need to make sure that we do both.

[xd ED]

There is an unlicensed individual from the Bloomington/Savage/Shakopee area that has been ordering PSA & ECG (Palmetto State Armory & East Coast Guns) AR-15 lower receivers in bulk & reselling them on Armslist.com. He specifically indicates he is 'not a dealer' & 'has sold xx amount'. I assume he is using an FFL services in the aforementioned areas for the initial transfer. A customer came into the office today & brought it to my attention. Anyway, whoever the unlicensed individual is, they have no idea how fooked they are. It is a serious fed crime for dealing in firearms without a license. The ATF will eventually audit the FFL where the transfers took place; see that "Joe Blow/eric holder" ordered & transferred all these lowers. They'll proceed to make photo copies of the bound book, knock on the transferree's door, shoot their dog(s) & ..... They will then ask him/her to produce the lower receivers on-site. Obviously he/she won't be able to. BOOM!!!

I personally couldn't care less what this person is doing, as I am not the BATFE, but he obviously has no idea how bad he has fooked himself. There simply is no way out of it unless they were able to track down 9 out of 10 buyers & buy them back. For further proof, read his for-sale ads & you can see how oblivious he is to the laws & regs:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/432489/bl ... and-new---
http://www.armslist.com/posts/425604/bl ... -last-one-

I am a steadfast atheist, but may God help his soul.....ignorance is not an excuse.

There is much wrong with this post.

Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

Holland&Holland,

I spend a lot of time on arfcom, hence the 'kick in your door & shoot your dog' reference. It's a running joke that often gets posted by users in the forums there.

With that said, reading is fundamental. You apparently missed the part where I said I personally couldn't care less what this individual is doing. Believe me, some guy selling a couple dozen lowers is not a threat to our bottom line. The posts have since been deleted by the seller, but he specifically stated things like "I sold 9 of these last week" & "I am not a dealer. There is no paperwork or tax".. These statements clearly indicate the seller is naive & oblivious to the fact he is in serious violation of federal law Now, did I turn him into law enforcement? No, I did not. The last thing I want to see is someone have their life destroyed because they had no idea that what they were doing was illegal.

The portions of your post which I highlighted sorta make the tinfoil in my hat give off a 'fast and furious' vibration. With those declarations, I wonder: might the buyer be a accountable member of an illegal transaction?

ETA:
Like some others have posted, I appreciate and respect that you stepped up with your warning.

[Tromix-Saiga-12]

For those who were unable to read the seller's posts before they were deleted, here are the google cached pages:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

The US Code says:
(11) The term “dealer” means

(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

[CarRacer]

Eesh, that's kind of scary how shady that ad is. Glad you made your post and hopefully scared that guy straight.

[farmerj]

"Shall NOT be infringed"....


Just saying.....

[Holland&Holland]

Not to mention innocent until proven guilty but hey why go through due process.