Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

[System7]

Carry a long gun in public (see MN <a href="tel:624.7181">624.7181</a>).
Transport a loaded handgun in your vehicle (edited for correctness)

b

Can anyone explain this a little bit clearer for me. How I read it is, that "Carry" does not include long guns. Thanks CCIC

MN <a href="tel:624.7181">624.7181</a> allows a permit holder to carry a long gun under MN 624.714. Read subdivision 1-b-3 (bolded in the quote below)

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=<a href="tel:624.7181">624.7181</a>

<a href="tel:624.7181">624.7181</a> RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES.

Subdivision 1.Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms have the meanings given them.
(a) "BB gun" means a device that fires or ejects a shot measuring .18 of an inch or less in diameter.

(b) "Carry" does not include:

(1) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun to, from, or at a place where firearms are repaired, bought, sold, traded, or displayed, or where hunting, target shooting, or other lawful activity involving firearms occurs, or at funerals, parades, or other lawful ceremonies;

(2) the carrying by a person of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun that is unloaded and in a gun case expressly made to contain a firearm, if the case fully encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and no portion of the firearm is exposed;

(3) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714;

(4) the carrying of an antique firearm as a curiosity or for its historical significance or value; or

(5) the transporting of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun in compliance with section 97B.045.

(c) "Public place" means property owned, leased, or controlled by a governmental unit and private property that is regularly and frequently open to or made available for use by the public in sufficient numbers to give clear notice of the property's current dedication to public use but does not include: a person's dwelling house or premises, the place of business owned or managed by the person, or land possessed by the person; a gun show, gun shop, or hunting or target shooting facility; or the woods, fields, or waters of this state where the person is present lawfully for the purpose of hunting or target shooting or other lawful activity involving firearms.

Subd. 2.Penalties. Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person under the age of 21 who carries a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon, as defined in section 624.712, subdivision 7, on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a felony.
Subd. 3.Exceptions. This section does not apply to officers, employees, or agents of law enforcement agencies or the armed forces of this state or the United States, or private detectives or protective agents, to the extent that these persons are authorized by law to carry firearms and are acting in the scope of their official duties.

So my ptc allows me to carry my loaded AR in public?

[Spike]

IBFTL!

[mrp]

So my ptc allows me to carry my loaded AR in public?

I wouldn't phrase it that way. The statutes tell you what's illegal, not what's legal. The statute which would normally make it illegal for you to walk around in public with your AR does not apply if you have a PTC. That doesn't mean you couldn't be charged under some other statute (Disorderly conduct, Terroristic threats, etc.) if you were to do it.

[mrp]

Besides giving you the option to carry a pistol, what else does a permit to carry allow you to do that you would otherwise not be able to do (legally)?

For example: You can buy an "assualt" style weapon with a ptc.

While not exactly what you're asking about, A PTC can turn a felony into a misdemeanor.

609.66 DANGEROUS WEAPONS.
Subd. 1d.Possession on school property; penalty.

(a) Except as provided under paragraphs (d) and (f), whoever possesses, stores, or keeps a dangerous weapon while knowingly on school property is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

(d) Notwithstanding paragraph (a), (b), or (c), it is a misdemeanor for a person authorized to carry a firearm under the provisions of a permit or otherwise to carry a firearm on or about the person's clothes or person in a location the person knows is school property. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation of this paragraph is not subject to forfeiture.

[fuller malarkey]

So my ptc allows me to carry my loaded AR in public?

I wouldn't phrase it that way. The statutes tell you what's illegal, not what's legal. The statute which would normally make it illegal for you to walk around in public with your AR does not apply if you have a PTC. That doesn't mean you couldn't be charged under some other statute (Disorderly conduct, Terroristic threats, etc.) if you were to do it.

Can you provide any cites I can study on this? I find this very interesting. Statute allows open carry of hand and long weapons by permit. Governor Pawlenty signed Senate File 2259 into law (Laws of Minnesota 2005, Chapter 83) on May 24, 2005. This act makes no distinction between "open carry" versus "concealed carry" and persons with a valid permit are allowed to carry using either method. Minnesota Statutes § 471.633 expressly preempts all local governments from enacting legislation regulating firearms, ammunition, or their respective components. The legislature has enacted various exceptions to section 471.633. Pursuant to these exceptions, local governments have authority to pass the following types of legislation:
Regulation of the discharge of firearms.1;
Regulation identical to state law.2;
Reasonable, nondiscriminatory and nonarbitrary zoning ordinances regarding the location of businesses where guns are sold by a firearms dealer.3; and
County regulation of secondhand and junk dealers.

Can you point me to case citations where a permitted Minnesota open long gun carrier, in a permitted area, was charged and convicted of a crime based entirely on their presence in public with an open carried long gun?

[mrp]

So my ptc allows me to carry my loaded AR in public?

I wouldn't phrase it that way. The statutes tell you what's illegal, not what's legal. The statute which would normally make it illegal for you to walk around in public with your AR does not apply if you have a PTC. That doesn't mean you couldn't be charged under some other statute (Disorderly conduct, Terroristic threats, etc.) if you were to do it.

Can you provide any cites I can study on this? (snip)
Can you point me to case citations where a permitted Minnesota open long gun carrier, in a permitted area, was charged and convicted of a crime based entirely on their presence in public with an open carried long gun?

I'm not aware of any cases. You may still be missing my point, though. The fact that walking around with your AR isn't a violation of 624.7181 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES doesn't mean that you can't be charged with other crimes.

I don't think it would be that hard for a prosecutor to convince a jury that you're guilty of something under 609.713.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.713

609.713 TERRORISTIC THREATS.
Subdivision 1.Threaten violence; intent to terrorize.

Whoever threatens, directly or indirectly, to commit any crime of violence with purpose to terrorize another or to cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, vehicle or facility of public transportation or otherwise to cause serious public inconvenience, or in a reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both. As used in this subdivision, "crime of violence" has the meaning given "violent crime" in section 609.1095, subdivision 1, paragraph (d).

(d) "Violent crime" means a violation of or an attempt or conspiracy to violate any of the following laws of this state or any similar laws of the United States or any other state: sections 152.137; 609.165; 609.185; 609.19; 609.195; 609.20; 609.205; 609.21; 609.221; 609.222; 609.223; 609.228; 609.235; 609.24; 609.245; 609.25; 609.255; 609.2661; 609.2662; 609.2663; 609.2664; 609.2665; 609.267; 609.2671; 609.268; 609.342; 609.343; 609.344; 609.345; 609.498, subdivision 1; 609.561; 609.562; 609.582, subdivision 1; 609.66, subdivision 1e; 609.687; and 609.855, subdivision 5; any provision of sections 609.229; 609.377; 609.378; 609.749; and 624.713 that is punishable by a felony penalty; or any provision of chapter 152 that is punishable by a maximum sentence of 15 years or more.

Could a prosecutor convince a jury that you ought to know that walking into the city counsel meeting with your AR will tend to, alarm, anger or disturb others? Congratulations, that's 609.72 DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.72

[fuller malarkey]

I'm not aware of any cases. You may still be missing my point, though. The fact that walking around with your AR isn't a violation of 624.7181 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES doesn't mean that you can't be charged with other crimes.

I don't think it would be that hard for a prosecutor to convince a jury that you're guilty of something under 609.713.


Could a prosecutor convince a jury that you ought to know that walking into the city counsel meeting with your AR will tend to, alarm, anger or disturb others? Congratulations, that's 609.72 DISORDERLY CONDUCT.

Well, that seems a rather extreme example, wouldn't you agree? Disrupting a city meeting will have consequences, whether you have a gun or a skunk with you. Appropriate has to come into play here somewhere, too. Those people that play Golf have lots of clubs in those bags they tote around. You know why? Each club is used for it's designed application, or need. Firearms are much the same way. A snub might be a good choice to pick for the city council meeting. So with that understanding, lets presume the actors possess "appropriateness consciousness", which we know is subjective. Middle of the road folks, not 6 foot tall parrots distributing hate flyers. No "we're here, we're armed, we're in your face" goin' on.

I run the bike path that runs around this town I'm in. Incidentally, it's just a short walk off the bike trail to the local community sportsman's club, where there's a range. Arf the Taliban Terrier and I trudge 2.2 miles down the Bike Path and dispense copper clad lead at paper twice a week. We do the Bike Path everyday, regardless if I shoot or not. It's eight city blocks of residential streets to the trail head, and about the same from trail end back to the Casa de Malarkey.
Now add a slung AR to the picture. Or simply a discretely open carried semi-auto pistol in a retention holster. No drop leg. No single action 10 inch barrel hog legs. Discrete. And open.

If I go about 18 miles straight west of where I'm sitting, I cross an invisible line where open carry is as common as seeing a folding knife in a leather holster on this side of that line. They seem to have most of what we have here.....over there: people, crime, cops, laws roads, towns. And news sources that aren't reporting a body count anywhere near what I see on this side of that invisible state line. No body counts attributed to open firearms carriers anyway. Their count may be lower for it, for all I know.

So. Shelving the extreme examples, are you aware of anyone being convicted of a crime due to open carrying in the course of their day to day business? Not terrorizing kindergarten classes or climbing the tower in village square. Legal carry in legal places.
.

[bstrawse]

So my ptc allows me to carry my loaded AR in public?

Yes.

I didn't say it would necessarily be wise to do so in some areas - but it is legal to do so.
b

[bstrawse]

Can you point me to case citations where a permitted Minnesota open long gun carrier, in a permitted area, was charged and convicted of a crime based entirely on their presence in public with an open carried long gun?

I am unaware of any. Given that the action you're describing is legal, I'm not sure what they would be charged for unless they were committing some other crime (assault, terroristic threats, etc).

The mere presence of a legally carried weapon is not illegal.
b

[photogpat]

Hey malarkey, when you decide to open carry your AR, can you let us all know? I, for one, would like to be there to watch and photograph the result - I'm certain everyone else would be interested as well! Better yet, there's another Minnesota internet forum out there devoted to the MN carry community....and a Minnesota specific carry forum is beneficial to all. (see what I did there without providing a specific link).

Try getting ahold of some of the organizers over there with your ideas, and see where they take you.

[Pezhead]

Wasn't someone open carrying when the President visted a few years ago? I don't believe he was charged.
My memory isn't working the best this morning.

[jshuberg]

Well, that seems a rather extreme example, wouldn't you agree?

Better example. If I were to decide to be a smug *******, and push the limits of what is considered acceptable in our society, and go out of my way to alarm people and provoke an incident with police just to prove that I can execute my rights, here is what is likely to happen:

As I walk down Nicolette Ave downtown wearing head to toe tacticool gear with my machine gun slung across my chest, I turn the corner and bump directly into one of Minneapolis's finest. As I prepare my little speech about 2A rights, MN law and how I won't consent to a Terry search, Mr. LEO is on a completely different mental track. He perceives me as an immediate threat, and that his life and the lives of those around us are in danger. He shoots and kills me, right there instantly on the spot. The last thing that goes through my mind on my way to the hereafter is MN statute 624.7181, and how I was only acting within the law. After a brief investigation, the prosecutor decides not to press charges, as it was determined that a reasonable person would have felt that the 4 criteria required for use of deadly force was present. The officer is given a medal, and a statue of him is erected on the spot where I died. All the people rejoiced in their brave new hero. My cold dead corpse was saddened by this.

Other variations work as well. The cop could be another armed citizen. I could be wearing normal street clothes, carrying a shotgun or a hunting rifle. Maybe the LEO just takes me to the ground, where I hit my head and spend the rest of my life trying to figure out how doorknobs work. None of these a very pleasant options. While according to MN law carrying a long gun in public isn't a crime, the response to doing so is limited only to what a 'reasonable' person perceives as necessary, which could very easily be a physical altercation up to and including death.

Anyone with a desire to 'push the limits of my rights and see what happens' should stay focused on speech or religion. There is no room for people knowingly acting like jackasses in public when it comes to firearms.

[scout]

Anyone with a desire to 'push the limits of my rights and see what happens' should stay focused on speech or religion. There is very little room for people knowingly acting like jackasses in public when it comes to firearms.

epic quote.

[fuller malarkey]

Hey malarkey, when you decide to open carry your AR, can you let us all know? I, for one, would like to be there to watch and photograph the result - I'm certain everyone else would be interested as well! Better yet, there's another Minnesota internet forum out there devoted to the MN carry community....and a Minnesota specific carry forum is beneficial to all. (see what I did there without providing a specific link).

Try getting ahold of some of the organizers over there with your ideas, and see where they take you.

Please don't take this as a personal challenge. I'm trying to find the source of this implied threat, what this alluded to threat is towards someone legal carrying a weapon. And what authority this alluded to threat operates by. What is allowing this threat to a permitted person engaged in a legal activity to continue....If your posts are your way of saying "I don't think that is a good idea", or there is clear evidence danger exists for an open carrier that a newcomer might not be privy to.

As far as me carrying an AR or anything else, I think I'm right where someone engaged in fear mongering would want me to be....... I've got too much to lose by taking wild, uncalculated risks with no safety nets. As a result of the implied threat, I refrain from carrying anything anywhere that isn't cased, unloaded, partially disassembled, and as covertly as possible.

The "other forum" thing.....this "internet-forum-you-can't-name-yet-are-willing-to-allude-to", I really don't know which one you're referring to. I am aware of four sites with Minnesota in their name dealing with firearms. Maybe mentioning other forums here is a violation of the terms of service or rules? Consider a private message identifying the forum you are recommending, and I'll look into it. One forum with "carry" in the name is virtually the sanctuary of a reclusive tormented soul, with little other member activity. There's been a handful of posts by a few users in a couple of threads in the past day or so. Another "carry specific" Minnesota forum is new, and the activity seems to be what you'd expect of a new forum with enthusiastic newcomers all looking for common interests to build on and from. IMO, it'll take the element of time for those with legitimate experience and integrity to surface there, and be recognized as trusted sources of information one could act on.

[bstrawse]

Pat is referring to Andrew Rothman's forum -- http://carryforum.com.

Andrew is Vice President of GOCRA - the Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Association - and Executive Director of MADFI (MN Association of Defensive Firearms Instructors) - a local instructor certification group..

GOCRA -- http://gocra-mn.org/
MADFI -- http://madfi.org

B