Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

[fuller malarkey]

I'm currently covered by a concealed carry permit issued outside of Minnesota. The state issuing it has reciprocity with Minnesota.

Reciprocity is great, but if you're going to be living here for any length of time I would highly recommend taking a class. There will be differences with wherever your permit is issued from.

And truthfully, isn't that what forums are for.....?

To get all of the legal information normally covered in a 6-8 hour class for free? No, I don't think that's what the forum is for, but I'm pretty new here myself so perhaps someone else can chime in on this idea.

I don't think much, if any, of the legalities covered in training classes is privileged information. Discussion might not only help me come to a better understanding of Minnesota regulations, it may help others clarify what they know, may have missed, or weren't offered in their training programs.

[Grayskies]

I'm having a hard time buying that any Judge is going to allow that a citizen must adapt and adopt an understanding given by Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass" character Humpty Dumpty, who gets to make up words and meanings as he goes along. I suspect that while application might be somewhat dynamic, there should be some static quality to the carry law to interpret from.

[sarcasm]
You could be correct. You're probably a MN carry permit instructor and have sat in while potential laws were drafted, listened to the give and take legislators and more importantly the staff and revisors who actually write the law, heard about different ways of writing the laws from a law professor or one of two brilliant attorneys who have been bird dogging MN gun law for decades, possibly even having looked at that specific law ... Heck, you've probably seen, discussed, or maybe even reviewed applicable case law on the matter

I, on the other hand, probably don't know what I'm talking about and you, as the newcomer with an out of state permit are likely more correct
[/sarcasm]

But that wouldn't be the way I would bet

Or, you could be playing both sides of the street given your prior comments in this thread and should be treated as your screen name indicates

Wow!!! Well stated!

[fuller malarkey]

Please don't take this as a personal challenge. I'm trying to find the source of this implied threat, what this alluded to threat is towards someone legal carrying a weapon. And what authority this alluded to threat operates by. What is allowing this threat to a permitted person engaged in a legal activity to continue....If your posts are your way of saying "I don't think that is a good idea", or there is clear evidence danger exists for an open carrier that a newcomer might not be privy to.

As far as me carrying an AR or anything else, I think I'm right where someone engaged in fear mongering would want me to be....... I've got too much to lose by taking wild, uncalculated risks with no safety nets. As a result of the implied threat, I refrain from carrying anything anywhere that isn't cased, unloaded, partially disassembled, and as covertly as possible.

The "other forum" thing.....this "internet-forum-you-can't-name-yet-are-willing-to-allude-to", I really don't know which one you're referring to. I am aware of four sites with Minnesota in their name dealing with firearms. Maybe mentioning other forums here is a violation of the terms of service or rules? Consider a private message identifying the forum you are recommending, and I'll look into it. One forum with "carry" in the name is virtually the sanctuary of a reclusive tormented soul, with little other member activity. There's been a handful of posts by a few users in a couple of threads in the past day or so. Another "carry specific" Minnesota forum is new, and the activity seems to be what you'd expect of a new forum with enthusiastic newcomers all looking for common interests to build on and from. IMO, it'll take the element of time for those with legitimate experience and integrity to surface there, and be recognized as trusted sources of information one could act on.

No threats from me (implied or otherwise) - I document newsworthy events with my cameras all the time...selfishly, I just wanted to be in the right place at the right time...unselfishly, I wanted you to speak with someone much more informed about the carry movement in MN than myself -- that would be Andrew Rothman.

Thank you for your response.

[CarryCauseICan]

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/sta ... d=624.7181

624.7181 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES.

Subdivision 1.Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms have the meanings given them.
(a) "BB gun" means a device that fires or ejects a shot measuring .18 of an inch or less in diameter.

(b) "Carry" does not include:

(1) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun to, from, or at a place where firearms are repaired, bought, sold, traded, or displayed, or where hunting, target shooting, or other lawful activity involving firearms occurs, or at funerals, parades, or other lawful ceremonies;

(2) the carrying by a person of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun that is unloaded and in a gun case expressly made to contain a firearm, if the case fully encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and no portion of the firearm is exposed;

(3) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714;

(4) the carrying of an antique firearm as a curiosity or for its historical significance or value; or

(5) the transporting of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun in compliance with section 97B.045.

(c) "Public place" means property owned, leased, or controlled by a governmental unit and private property that is regularly and frequently open to or made available for use by the public in sufficient numbers to give clear notice of the property's current dedication to public use but does not include: a person's dwelling house or premises, the place of business owned or managed by the person, or land possessed by the person; a gun show, gun shop, or hunting or target shooting facility; or the woods, fields, or waters of this state where the person is present lawfully for the purpose of hunting or target shooting or other lawful activity involving firearms.

Subd. 2.Penalties. Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person under the age of 21 who carries a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon, as defined in section 624.712, subdivision 7, on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a felony.
Subd. 3.Exceptions. This section does not apply to officers, employees, or agents of law enforcement agencies or the armed forces of this state or the United States, or private detectives or protective agents, to the extent that these persons are authorized by law to carry firearms and are acting in the scope of their official duties.

[/quote]
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding this, but I dont see any where that your permit to carry a pistol (which is what my permit says) allows you to carry a long gun. I placed some things in bold up above. "Carry does not include" is the big one and the penalties listed below. Again Im sorry if I am misunderstanding this.[/quote]


Dang, Thats some Bass Ackwards wording! Under Rifles and Shotguns in Public Places... The term "Carry" does not include those Carrying with a permit. The whole section is law making it illegal to carry a long gun, but it does not apply to those with a permit. But, You can't travel with a loaded long gun uncased!? (Exemption for hunting part, uncased and unloaded) Got it now. Sorry for kicking that dead horse again. Now, Who's gonna be the Guinea pig and try this out! Not it!!!!!

[bstrawse]

I don't think much, if any, of the legalities covered in training classes is privileged information. Discussion might not only help me come to a better understanding of Minnesota regulations, it may help others clarify what they know, may have missed, or weren't offered in their training programs.

None of it is privileged - particularly since the state statute defines the broad scope of the required topics that must be taught - and then certifies organizations to certify instructors to teach and so on.

A good class though - with a good instructor, is a good place to start. There are plenty of recommendations elsewhere on the forum for that. As you know, some instructors are better than others.

I also highly recommend the books by Michael Martin or Joel Rosenberg that cover Minnesota specific topics.

Michael - http://www.keyhousepress.com/Home.html (the MN specific book would be the best choice)
Joel - http://www.nacfi.us/info/ - Joel's book is a bit dated now but the information is still valid.

You can definitely read the statutes - but you would also need to read the court cases that interpret the statutes to get the full picture - something that a good instructor would simplify (like, for example, what does duty to retreat really mean in MN - and how have the courts interpreted that).. and so on.

On this forum, you'll find many strong instructors and others that have clear knowledge of the law - and many who do not. Take advice carefully.

On carryforum, you'll also find Andrew Rothman (mentioned previously on this thread) and Professor Joe Olson - both of whom are highly active w/ GOCRA and before the legislature on gun rights issues.

Hope this helps -
B

[OldmanFCSA]

Free "get out of a speeding ticket" pass?

Does not work in Iowa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[goett047]

Free "get out of a speeding ticket" pass?

Does not work in Iowa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol give it ttime

[fuller malarkey]

I don't think much, if any, of the legalities covered in training classes is privileged information. Discussion might not only help me come to a better understanding of Minnesota regulations, it may help others clarify what they know, may have missed, or weren't offered in their training programs.

None of it is privileged - particularly since the state statute defines the broad scope of the required topics that must be taught - and then certifies organizations to certify instructors to teach and so on.

A good class though - with a good instructor, is a good place to start. There are plenty of recommendations elsewhere on the forum for that. As you know, some instructors are better than others.

I also highly recommend the books by Michael Martin or Joel Rosenberg that cover Minnesota specific topics.

Michael - http://www.keyhousepress.com/Home.html (the MN specific book would be the best choice)
Joel - http://www.nacfi.us/info/ - Joel's book is a bit dated now but the information is still valid.

You can definitely read the statutes - but you would also need to read the court cases that interpret the statutes to get the full picture - something that a good instructor would simplify (like, for example, what does duty to retreat really mean in MN - and how have the courts interpreted that).. and so on.

On this forum, you'll find many strong instructors and others that have clear knowledge of the law - and many who do not. Take advice carefully.

On carryforum, you'll also find Andrew Rothman (mentioned previously on this thread) and Professor Joe Olson - both of whom are highly active w/ GOCRA and before the legislature on gun rights issues.

Hope this helps -
B

I appreciate the time and effort you put into a very well crafted response. Thank you.

I'll be taking a Minnesota training class this coming month, as my house in Virginia will be going to closing it appears. Technically, I'm not sure what the status of my Utah permit will be once I no longer have ties to Virginia. If memory serves me correctly, I'll need to show eligibility in Minnesota [home state] to "be legit" with Utah requirements. About the only way I can verify eligibility is by going through the process of getting the permit. So. Your advice is right on time and will be used.

[System7]

I thought this was interesting given the AR carry discussion.

[Grayskies]

Nice find Thank You

[bothwell]

I've wondered about something similar: if I get pulled-over on the way home from the range, and it turns-out that I absentmindedly left a cartridge in my target pistol... I have a PTC so there's no problem (other than my being dangerously forgetful).

But if I forgot to clear a cartridge from a rifle, is there a legal problem? I can apparently "carry" the rifle loaded in a public place (provided that it doesn't scare anyone), but it seems like a stretch for me to claim that transporting in the trunk is carrying.

[tazdevil]

I've wondered about something similar: if I get pulled-over on the way home from the range, and it turns-out that I absentmindedly left a cartridge in my target pistol... I have a PTC so there's no problem (other than my being dangerously forgetful).

But if I forgot to clear a cartridge from a rifle, is there a legal problem? I can apparently "carry" the rifle loaded in a public place (provided that it doesn't scare anyone), but it seems like a stretch for me to claim that transporting in the trunk is carrying.

Was the rifle cased?

If not, then you could have a problem by the statute if I am reading it correctly. At the very least, the DNR may give you a headache, and decide your rifle is now their rifle.

[tman]

I've wondered about something similar: if I get pulled-over on the way home from the range, and it turns-out that I absentmindedly left a cartridge in my target pistol... I have a PTC so there's no problem (other than my being dangerously forgetful).

But if I forgot to clear a cartridge from a rifle, is there a legal problem? I can apparently "carry" the rifle loaded in a public place (provided that it doesn't scare anyone), but it seems like a stretch for me to claim that transporting in the trunk is carrying.

Was the rifle cased?

If not, then you could have a problem by the statute if I am reading it correctly. At the very least, the DNR may give you a headache, and decide your rifle is now their rifle.

Long guns must ALWAYS be unloaded for transport. And once it's in the car, you're not carrying it, you're TRANSPORTING it.

[tman]

oops.

doubletap.

[XDM45]

Anyone with a desire to 'push the limits of my rights and see what happens' should stay focused on speech or religion. There is very little room for people knowingly acting like jackasses in public when it comes to firearms.

epic quote.

After reading this entire thread.... my .002 worth:

1) +1 on both of the above. That really says it all. All pushing the limits of the law does is cause change in the law to the detriment of law abiding citizens. Not once does it work in our favor if someone acts like a jerk - especially within the confines of the law and with the explicit purpose of pushing the limits of it. The Man doesn't like that. The Man won't say "Oh look... he pushed the law so well, we'd better expand that law to give more room between what he does and the limits of the law." No, The Man does the opposite of that and says "hmmm they are pushing the limits so we better cut it back further or just make that illegal and be done with it."

2) Just because you *CAN* do something legally, doesn't mean you *SHOULD* do it.
Examples of perfectly legal things you can do, but shouldn't include, but aren't exclusively limited to:
a) Carrying a large sum of money (anything over a few hundred bucks)
b) Going into a dangerous neighborhood at night (North Minneapolis for example)
c) Flipping off a Hell's Angel biker (and even worse if you're riding one of those rocket bikes)
d) Crossing out gang graffiti
e) Publicly advertising any of these above.
f) .....and many, many, many more.

Let's just say for example that there wasn't any problem at all, legally or otherwise, with someone walking down the street with an RPG, flame thrower, long gun, anything at all.... ok. Do you really NEED to? Again, just because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD. If I could carry anything at all, the LAST thing I'd want to carry is some big rifle or weapon that advertises I have it. Sure, if the SHTF, yeah, of course, who cares then if someone sees you carry a rifle, but in current society in the world of today in which we all hopefully live, I don't want to be seen, noticed, obvious, or anything else when it comes to me carrying. For me, (and everyone is different), but for ME, I want to carry unnoticed....and that's a pistol.