Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby bstrawse on Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:19 pm

fuller malarkey wrote:
XDM45 wrote:They aren't wrong, but again, do you want to be "that guy" that the cops are called on because "he has a gun!!"



No, I don't want to have the police called on me for practicing a legal activity. What constitutes being "that guy"? A biased description involving extreme examples of radical dissidents doing and saying provacitive things?

And I don't understand how there can be a "that guy" designation on a Gun Talk forum, unless the forum is anti-firearm, anti 2A based. An open carrier engaged in a lawful activity shouldn't be eaten by his own for "not conforming" to some unspoken code. Campaign to have the open carry removed from the carry permit instead of allowing a dangerous practice to continue. Attempting to shame people into compliance of a code of conduct that is unwritten and of an unknown source might not work too well.


There's a guy who used to call himself "just a guy" who became "that guy" and then a "test case" that wasn't. But that's a long story.

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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby mrp on Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:15 pm

XDM45 wrote:
mrp wrote:
XDM45 wrote:2) Just because you *CAN* do something legally, doesn't mean you *SHOULD* do it.
Examples of perfectly legal things you can do, but shouldn't include, but aren't exclusively limited to:
a) Carrying a large sum of money (anything over a few hundred bucks)


Not so fast, citizen.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp

Federal Appeals Court: Driving With Money is a Crime
Eighth Circuit Appeals Court ruling says police may seize cash from motorists even in the absence of any evidence that a crime has been committed.

US Court of Appeals, Eighth CircuitA federal appeals court ruled yesterday that if a motorist is carrying large sums of money, it is automatically subject to confiscation. In the case entitled, "United States of America v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency," the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit took that amount of cash away from Emiliano Gomez Gonzolez, a man with a "lack of significant criminal history" neither accused nor convicted of any crime.


Something like 95% of money will test positive for illegal drugs, now whether that's legally or morally right to take money based on that is another discussion.

My point is that just because you CAN do something legally doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it, that's all. It's my opinion, and we each have one.


I wasn't arguing that you should do everything you can legally do.

XDM45 wrote:We're each are entitled to our own opinion and just because my opinion may differ from another's opinion, neither opinion negates the other's nor is one's own opinion valid for anyone but themselves. So please, feel free to agree or disagree, whatever you may choose.


You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Asserting your right to your opinion (or someone else's right to their opinion) does nothing to further the argument.

XDM45 wrote:In my opinion, just because someone could legally carry that much money on them doesn't mean that it's a wise move to do so; let alone advertise it.


Which has exactly nothing to do with my post. You're asserting that it's legal to carry a large sum of money. I'm pointing out that the court has ruled that the government can assume you're up to no good if you have a large amount of money and can take the money away from you without having to prove that you are, in fact, up to no good. That makes carrying a large amount of money de facto illegal, and makes "carrying a large sum of money" not a good fit when trying to list things which are "perfectly legal".
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby tman on Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:49 pm

mrp wrote:
XDM45 wrote:2) Just because you *CAN* do something legally, doesn't mean you *SHOULD* do it.
Examples of perfectly legal things you can do, but shouldn't include, but aren't exclusively limited to:
a) Carrying a large sum of money (anything over a few hundred bucks)


Not so fast, citizen.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp

Federal Appeals Court: Driving With Money is a Crime
Eighth Circuit Appeals Court ruling says police may seize cash from motorists even in the absence of any evidence that a crime has been committed.

US Court of Appeals, Eighth CircuitA federal appeals court ruled yesterday that if a motorist is carrying large sums of money, it is automatically subject to confiscation. In the case entitled, "United States of America v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency," the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit took that amount of cash away from Emiliano Gomez Gonzolez, a man with a "lack of significant criminal history" neither accused nor convicted of any crime.


Let's look at the ACTUAL decision: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2006/moneyseize.pdf


The route and circumstances of Gonzolez’s travel were highly suspicious.
Gonzolez had flown on a one-way ticket, which we have previously acknowledged
is evidence in favor of forfeiture, see United States v. U.S. Currency in the Amount
of $150,660.00, 980 F.2d 1200, 1206 (8th Cir. 1992), and he gave a vague
explanation, attributed to advice from an unidentified third person, about why he
elected to return by car. Gonzolez purportedly carried $125,000 in cash with him on
his flight, for the purpose of buying a truck that he had never seen, from a third party
whom he had never met, with the help of a friend whose name he could not recall at
trial. This testimony does not inspire confidence in the innocence of the conduct.
When he was stopped by the Nebraska State Patrol, Gonzolez was driving a rental car
that was leased in the name of another person who was not present, another
circumstance that gives rise to suspicion. Then, when Gonzolez was questioned by
officers, he lied about having money in the car and about the names of his friends,
thus giving further reason to question the legitimacy of the currency’s presence. See
$117,920.00 in U.S. Currency, 413 F.3d at 829. The totality of these circumstances
– the large amount of concealed currency, the strange travel pattern, the inability to
identify a key party in the purported innocent transaction, the unusual rental car
papers, the canine alert, and the false statements to law enforcement officers – leads
most naturally to the inference that Gonzolez was involved in illegal drug activity,
and that the currency was substantially connected to it.
While the claimants’ explanation for these circumstances may be “plausible,”
we think it is unlikely. We therefore conclude that the government proved by a
preponderance of the evidence that the defendant currency was substantially
connected to a narcotics offense. Accordingly, we reverse the judgment of the district
court and remand for further proceedings.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby mrp on Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:12 pm

tman wrote:
mrp wrote:
XDM45 wrote:2) Just because you *CAN* do something legally, doesn't mean you *SHOULD* do it.
Examples of perfectly legal things you can do, but shouldn't include, but aren't exclusively limited to:
a) Carrying a large sum of money (anything over a few hundred bucks)


Not so fast, citizen.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp

Federal Appeals Court: Driving With Money is a Crime
Eighth Circuit Appeals Court ruling says police may seize cash from motorists even in the absence of any evidence that a crime has been committed.

US Court of Appeals, Eighth CircuitA federal appeals court ruled yesterday that if a motorist is carrying large sums of money, it is automatically subject to confiscation. In the case entitled, "United States of America v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency," the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit took that amount of cash away from Emiliano Gomez Gonzolez, a man with a "lack of significant criminal history" neither accused nor convicted of any crime.


Let's look at the ACTUAL decision: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2006/moneyseize.pdf


The route and circumstances of Gonzolez’s travel were highly suspicious.
Gonzolez had flown on a one-way ticket, which we have previously acknowledged
is evidence in favor of forfeiture, see United States v. U.S. Currency in the Amount
of $150,660.00, 980 F.2d 1200, 1206 (8th Cir. 1992), and he gave a vague
explanation, attributed to advice from an unidentified third person, about why he
elected to return by car. Gonzolez purportedly carried $125,000 in cash with him on
his flight, for the purpose of buying a truck that he had never seen, from a third party
whom he had never met, with the help of a friend whose name he could not recall at
trial. This testimony does not inspire confidence in the innocence of the conduct.
When he was stopped by the Nebraska State Patrol, Gonzolez was driving a rental car
that was leased in the name of another person who was not present, another
circumstance that gives rise to suspicion. Then, when Gonzolez was questioned by
officers, he lied about having money in the car and about the names of his friends,
thus giving further reason to question the legitimacy of the currency’s presence. See
$117,920.00 in U.S. Currency, 413 F.3d at 829. The totality of these circumstances
– the large amount of concealed currency, the strange travel pattern, the inability to
identify a key party in the purported innocent transaction, the unusual rental car
papers, the canine alert, and the false statements to law enforcement officers – leads
most naturally to the inference that Gonzolez was involved in illegal drug activity,
and that the currency was substantially connected to it.
While the claimants’ explanation for these circumstances may be “plausible,”
we think it is unlikely. We therefore conclude that the government proved by a
preponderance of the evidence that the defendant currency was substantially
connected to a narcotics offense. Accordingly, we reverse the judgment of the district
court and remand for further proceedings.


I did read the decision, and I agreed with the dissenting judge. The money may very well have been drug money, but the government did not prove that it was, and took it anyway.

LAY, Circuit Judge, dissenting.

I respectfully dissent. Although the circumstantial evidence offered by the government provides some indication that the money seized in this case may be related to criminal activity, I cannot agree that the government has proven, by a preponderance of the evidence, the requisite substantial connection between the currency and a controlled substance offense.

Notwithstanding the fact that claimants seemingly suspicious activities were reasoned away with plausible, and thus presumptively trustworthy, explanations which the government failed to contradict or rebut, I note that no drugs, drug paraphernalia, or drug records were recovered in connection with the seized money. There is no evidence claimants were ever convicted of any drug-related crime, nor is there any indication the manner in which the currency was bundled was indicative of drug use or distribution. At most, the evidence presented suggests the money seized may have been involved in some illegal activity – activity that is incapable of being ascertained on the record before us. See United States v. U.S. Currency, $30,060.00, 39 F.3d 1039, 1044 (9th Cir. 1994) (“[A] mere suspicion of illegal activity is not enough to establish . . . that the money was connected to drugs.”).

The law of our circuit makes clear that the possession of a large amount of cash provides strong evidence of a connection between the res and illegal drug activity. Yet this fact is not dispositive. A faithful reading of the cases cited by the majority from our court reveal that we have required some additional nexus between the property seized and drug activity to support forfeiture. In United States v. U.S. Currency, in the Amount of $150,660.00, 980 F.2d 1200 (8th Cir. 1992), we recognized such a nexus where the investigating officer immediately smelled marijuana upon inspecting the currency. Id.at 1203, 1206. In United States v. $84,615 in U.S. Currency, 379 F.3d 496 (8th Cir. 2004), we concluded forfeiture was proper where the owner of the seized currency “undisputedly possessed illegal drugs at the time” the currency was discovered. Id.at 502. Most recently, in United States v. $117,920.00 in United States Currency, 413 F.3d 826 (8th Cir. 2005), we determined that forfeiture was warranted where materials known to be used to package and conceal drugs were recovered in close physical proximity to the seized currency, and where the investigating officer detected the smell of marijuana on some of these materials. Id.at 829.

Here, the only evidence linking the seized money to illegal drug activity is a canine sniff that alerted officers to the presence of narcotics on the currency itself and the exterior of the rear passenger side of the rental car where the currency was discovered. However, as Justice Souter recently recognized, a large percentage of currency presently in circulation contains trace amounts of narcotics. See Illinois v. Caballes, 543 U.S. 405, 410-12 (2005) (Souter, J. dissenting). As a result, this fact is virtually “meaningless and likely quite prejudicial.” United States v. Carr, 25 F.3d 1194, 1216 (3d Cir. 1994) (Becker, J., concurring). Our decision in $84,615 in U.S. Currency to afford this evidence only “slight” weight is thus well-founded, and this factor, taken in conjunction with the large amount of currency seized, does not favor forfeiture. Finally, the mere fact that the canine alerted officers to the presence of drug residue in a rental car, no doubt driven by dozens, perhaps scores, of patrons during the course of a given year, coupled with the fact that the alert came from the same location where the currency was discovered, does little to connect the money to a controlled substance offense. Therefore, I respectfully dissent.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby Lunchbox on Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:44 pm

Whatever happened to the government's side proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt?

I read the decision and thought dude was SOL, then I read the dissention, everything seems too circumstantial to warrant seizing the money. Just my take, IANAL, nor do I play one on tv and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby bstrawse on Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:35 am

Lunchbox wrote:Whatever happened to the government's side proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt?

I read the decision and thought dude was SOL, then I read the dissention, everything seems too circumstantial to warrant seizing the money. Just my take, IANAL, nor do I play one on tv and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.


Because this is a civil case, not a criminal case, and therefore the standard of proof is the preponderance of the evidence -- not the higher standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby XDM45 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:53 am

Grayskies wrote:Right, I get that, $200-$300 should be more than enough for one person I'd think, but that's just me.


Married, trying telling that to her! :P[/quote]

I guess I'm just blessed then. When my wife and I go to RenFest, it's $100 tops including the cash to get in.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby XDM45 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:55 am

fuller malarkey wrote:
XDM45 wrote:
As for "that guy", I get what you're saying, I was just saying that (at least I) don't want to be the button pusher.


I don't want to be a button pusher either. I want to go about my business without concern of assault, arrest, public humiliation, and possibly killed for engaging in an activity I am permitted to do.


Likewise....and one does not need to visibly carry a firearm to do that. There are people who want to do that for whatever reason. I'd rather just conceal carry and be on my merry way.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby XDM45 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:56 am

fuller malarkey wrote:The point is you don't have a point. What I have in my pocket is my business, and no bearing on the topic at hand.


Just because you fail to see my point does not mean it doesn't exist.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby fuller malarkey on Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:25 am

XDM45 wrote:
fuller malarkey wrote:The point is you don't have a point. What I have in my pocket is my business, and no bearing on the topic at hand.


Just because you fail to see my point does not mean it doesn't exist.


My point is in red. Please clarify yours.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby XDM45 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:39 am

XDM45 wrote:We're each are entitled to our own opinion and just because my opinion may differ from another's opinion, neither opinion negates the other's nor is one's own opinion valid for anyone but themselves. So please, feel free to agree or disagree, whatever you may choose.


mrp wrote:You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Asserting your right to your opinion (or someone else's right to their opinion) does nothing to further the argument.


You assume I'm arguing, which I'm not, I'm stating my opinion.

It's also my opinion that "facts" like everything else, are subjective to the holder's point of view. I'm sure you'll disagree with my opinion, and you are certainly entitled to do so,
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby XDM45 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:41 am

fuller malarkey wrote:
XDM45 wrote:
fuller malarkey wrote:The point is you don't have a point. What I have in my pocket is my business, and no bearing on the topic at hand.


Just because you fail to see my point does not mean it doesn't exist.


My point is in red. Please clarify yours.


From my posting on this thread at Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:16 am "Just because you *CAN* do something legally, doesn't mean you *SHOULD* do it."
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby fuller malarkey on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:19 am

XDM45 wrote:

From my posting on this thread at Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:16 am "Just because you *CAN* do something legally, doesn't mean you *SHOULD* do it."



I was giving you an opportunity to come up with something that might be more applicable and less embarrassing.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby XDM45 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:35 am

fuller malarkey wrote:
XDM45 wrote:
From my posting on this thread at Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:16 am "Just because you *CAN* do something legally, doesn't mean you *SHOULD* do it."


I was giving you an opportunity to come up with something that might be more applicable and less embarrassing.


Ok, time to clarify:

1) I'm not arguing because arguing is pointless. You're free to argue, but it takes two and since I'm only expressing my opinion, your efforts will be futile in any endeavor except to provide me humor.

2) I'm not embarrassed at all about anything. If that's your attempt to goad me into an argument, well, thanks for the laugh :)

3) "Just because you *CAN* do something legally, doesn't mean you *SHOULD* do it." is pretty succinct and to the point.

4) I'm merely expressing my opinion. You are doing the same. In my opinion, one opinion does not negate the other, nor does it validate it either. in my mind, neither opinion is more or less valid than the other. In your mind that will probably vary and that's ok because you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

If our opinions differ and you don't agree, cool.
If you do agree, cool.

Either way, it doesn't really matter to me what you or anyone else thinks.
Last edited by XDM45 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

Postby tman on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:38 am

XDM45 wrote:You assume I'm arguing, which I'm not, I'm stating my opinion.

It's also my opinion that "facts" like everything else, are subjective to the holder's point of view. I'm sure you'll disagree with my opinion, and you are certainly entitled to do so,


That, my internet co-hort, IS arguing. Welcome to the webz.


mrp wrote:I did read the decision, and I agreed with the dissenting judge.



Heh.. Sucks to be on minority side in a "majority" decision.
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