Problems with armslist denizen

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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby 45Badger on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:34 am

tman wrote:It wouldn't matter to me if I were prosecuted or not. I'd feel like ****, especially if it were preventable. And, if YOU sold THIS gun, I hope you can withstand the onslaught of civil lawsuits that are about to rain down on you. AND the gnawing of your conscience..

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iNM5Yog3SVoarJN0IrsOH7aizEzQ?docId=adc2e65a7ee043feb2c44ea248350cbe


I didn't. It's in WI and as a MN resident, it would be illegal for me to make that sale. Speed limits and fireworks aside, I tend to obey the law. Trying or pretending to do more than that is silly. It is possible that any gun, car, or canoe that anybody sells will end up used in a bad way. That would suck. Given my relatively boring (compared to Shippy 8-) ), prudent, law abiding, middle aged, non-dramatic life and social set it's improbable that I'll end up at the wrong end of selling a criminal or abusive husband a gun. I've bought, sold and swapped lots of guns over the years mostly in non-nanny states that don't require such nonsense as PTC/PTP. No bodies or boo-boos so far. PTC/PTP is not a badge of honor, it's a one time snap shot that indicates you have not been convicted of bad things (or caught yet ;) ).

Point of all my posts is- Obey the law, don't waste a second trying to do more. Don't assume folks who have a PTC/PTP are Boy Scouts, or that those who don't are shifty.
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby 911scanner on Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:13 am

I'm glad that those of you that don't feel a need to CYA are comfortable with that. Glad also that we currently don't have any laws that prevent you from doing it your chosen way.

Thanks to 45Badger for pointing out the word "intentionally" to me. Totally missed it and that word does change the effect of the law.

That being said, I still have the opinion that seeing a PTC gives me piece of mind, to an extent, that the chances are higher that the buyer of my weapon is within the law to do such. To me, it is much like buying more auto insurance than the legally mandated state minimums, so that I will be fully covered no matter the circumstance.

Either way, this issue is much like voting. Choose one way or the other, whichever one makes you more comfortable. Either choice you may choose is still legal.

I will still ask for a PTC/PTP to sell a gun to some stranger. I'll feel better.
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Problems with armslist denizen

Postby whiteox on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:09 am

tman wrote:
45Badger wrote:
When was the last time a normal (non druggie, non-home-boy-gang-banger, non-skinhead, non-I'm selling this gun to you so you can shoot your/my wife, I hope you're getting my point) was prosecuted (successfully or not) for making a personal sale to a buyer who claimed they were not prohibited (and the seller had no direct knowledge to the contrary)? Really?

Don't be *****-bliss-ninny-whipped on this folks. It's the same as selling a car or a used canoe.


It wouldn't matter to me if I were prosecuted or not. I'd feel like ****, especially if it were preventable. And, if YOU sold THIS gun, I hope you can withstand the onslaught of civil lawsuits that are about to rain down on you. AND the gnawing of your conscience..

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iNM5Yog3SVoarJN0IrsOH7aizEzQ?docId=adc2e65a7ee043feb2c44ea248350cbe
Radcliffe Haughton, 45, bought a handgun just two days after his beleaguered wife obtained a restraining order against him. He used that weapon to kill her and two other women Sunday at the spa where she worked, before fatally shooting himself.
...
Radcliffe Haughton's wife, Zina, secured the four-year restraining order against him on Thursday, at which point he was ordered to hand over all of his firearms to a county sheriff.



THIS. I'm not worried about criminal prosecution because I've always seen a permit and ID. I am confident that would counter the intent element of selling to a prohibited person.

My concern, as illustrated by the guy in the linked story, is that folks who are trying to get a gun to commit a crime aren't always pants-on-the-ground bangers, or Hell's Angels. The WI guy in the photo on appeared to be wearing normal clothes and unless he was blabbing how he needed a gun to kill his ex or otherwise acting sketchy it's damn hard to know what a guy's really like unless . . . You actually take the extra 3 minutes to check.

I think I'd have real trouble living with myself if I'd sold a gun to the guy who shot up the spa in WI if it came out after that the info about the restraining order was public and I could have found it if I'd have bothered to look. Maybe he'd have got a gun somewhere else, but maybe I'd have been able to let the court know this guy tried to buy a gun and he'd of ended up in jail and those folks who were killed would still be walking around.
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby 45Badger on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:00 pm

whiteox wrote:My concern, as illustrated by the guy in the linked story, is that folks who are trying to get a gun to commit a crime aren't always pants-on-the-ground bangers, or Hell's Angels. The WI guy in the photo on appeared to be wearing normal clothes and unless he was blabbing how he needed a gun to kill his ex or otherwise acting sketchy it's damn hard to know what a guy's really like unless . . . You actually take the extra 3 minutes to check.

I think I'd have real trouble living with myself if I'd sold a gun to the guy who shot up the spa in WI if it came out after that the info about the restraining order was public and I could have found it if I'd have bothered to look. Maybe he'd have got a gun somewhere else, but maybe I'd have been able to let the court know this guy tried to buy a gun and he'd of ended up in jail and those folks who were killed would still be walking around.


Do your sales/transfers through a dealer.
Live free, or die!
9mm = .45acp set on "stun"
Big Bullets At Moderate Speeds....Make Things Move
"You look like a tactical lumberjack"
Monschman is a thieving d-bag
.45 ACP - Because Shooting Twice Is Silly!
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Re: Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby goett047 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:08 pm

45Badger wrote:
whiteox wrote:My concern, as illustrated by the guy in the linked story, is that folks who are trying to get a gun to commit a crime aren't always pants-on-the-ground bangers, or Hell's Angels. The WI guy in the photo on appeared to be wearing normal clothes and unless he was blabbing how he needed a gun to kill his ex or otherwise acting sketchy it's damn hard to know what a guy's really like unless . . . You actually take the extra 3 minutes to check.

I think I'd have real trouble living with myself if I'd sold a gun to the guy who shot up the spa in WI if it came out after that the info about the restraining order was public and I could have found it if I'd have bothered to look. Maybe he'd have got a gun somewhere else, but maybe I'd have been able to let the court know this guy tried to buy a gun and he'd of ended up in jail and those folks who were killed would still be walking around.


Do your sales/transfers through a dealer.

This. Wasn't the shooter in mlps a permit holder?
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby XDM45 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:43 am

Right now I've never sold a gun, but that doesn't mean I won't in the future. Having given thought to this already, I've established my own personal guidelines for it. Yours will vary, and that's ok, but this is how I will do it when the time comes.....

1) You must have a MN ID that is current and valid.
2) You must have a MN Permit To Carry that is current and valid.
3) The full name and addresses on both items above must match exactly.
4) You must pay cash in full at time of purchase (USD of course).
5) The price is firm. I don't negotiate and play games if I want $500, that's what I ask for. I don't jack the price up and then "come down" to my number.
6) I do not deliver to you and we will meet in a public place where I'll have the item(s) with me.

As for craigslist, I anonymize the email, make them give me a phone number, then I block mine when calling them. If they don't anwser, I leave a message stating I will call back. I know all of this seems really anal, but I've learned my lesson long ago with CL nutjobs. Keep them and most buyers at a distance. As I said, I haven't ever sold a gun, so except for the first three, all the others have always applied to me whenever I've sold stuff on CL or anywhere else locally.
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby Hmac on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:47 am

XDM45 wrote:Right now I've never sold a gun, but that doesn't mean I won't in the future. Having given thought to this already, I've established my own personal guidelines for it. Yours will vary, and that's ok, but this is how I will do it when the time comes.....

1) You must have a MN ID that is current and valid.
2) You must have a MN Permit To Carry that is current and valid.
3) The full name and addresses on both items above must match exactly.
4) You must pay cash in full at time of purchase (USD of course).
5) The price is firm. I don't negotiate and play games if I want $500, that's what I ask for. I don't jack the price up and then "come down" to my number.
6) I do not deliver to you and we will meet in a public place where I'll have the item(s) with me.

As for craigslist, I anonymize the email, make them give me a phone number, then I block mine when calling them. If they don't anwser, I leave a message stating I will call back. I know all of this seems really anal, but I've learned my lesson long ago with CL nutjobs. Keep them and most buyers at a distance. As I said, I haven't ever sold a gun, so except for the first three, all the others have always applied to me whenever I've sold stuff on CL or anywhere else locally.


Do you carry a gun when you go to meet these proposed buyers?
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby XDM45 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:11 pm

Hmac wrote:
XDM45 wrote:Right now I've never sold a gun, but that doesn't mean I won't in the future. Having given thought to this already, I've established my own personal guidelines for it. Yours will vary, and that's ok, but this is how I will do it when the time comes.....

1) You must have a MN ID that is current and valid.
2) You must have a MN Permit To Carry that is current and valid.
3) The full name and addresses on both items above must match exactly.
4) You must pay cash in full at time of purchase (USD of course).
5) The price is firm. I don't negotiate and play games if I want $500, that's what I ask for. I don't jack the price up and then "come down" to my number.
6) I do not deliver to you and we will meet in a public place where I'll have the item(s) with me.

As for craigslist, I anonymize the email, make them give me a phone number, then I block mine when calling them. If they don't anwser, I leave a message stating I will call back. I know all of this seems really anal, but I've learned my lesson long ago with CL nutjobs. Keep them and most buyers at a distance. As I said, I haven't ever sold a gun, so except for the first three, all the others have always applied to me whenever I've sold stuff on CL or anywhere else locally.


Do you carry a gun when you go to meet these proposed buyers?


Since until recently I have not had a PTC, no.

Now that I have a PTC? Yes, I will... of course....but not for the reason many people are probably thinking of... that I take my gun as a precaution because I think something may happen in a particular situation I'm going into.... IF that's the case, then I shouldn't (and I won't....) go to such a place, meeting, etc. Avoidance, De-escalation, and Escape are more valuable tools than a gun, which is a last resort. Avoidance is the #1 rule. Trust your instincts and avoid situations if at all possible.

I wouldn't and don't carry my gun JUST to go make a sale or buy something... but because I carry as close to 24x7x365 as I can get. Carrying is just part of me going on about my daily business, that's all. My personal belief is that if you pick and choose what places to carry at (when you can legally do so), that may lead more into intent and any good judge, DA, lawyer would ask "If you thought the situation was dangerous, why did you go there? Why did bring a gun when you could have just waited for a different buyer (place, time, location, etc?" If you carry all the time (when you legally can), then no one can say that you picked and chose, expected danger, could have avoided the situation, etc, because you were just going on about your business. I'm not a lawyer, but if I were one, that's how I'd look at it at least (in part).

I do realize it's just not possible to carry due to legal restrictions, you're in the shower, swimming, at work where guns aren't allowed or some such situation; so in those, no, I can't carry, but whenever I can, I do. It's just part of going on about my business like having my car keys and cell phone are. To each their own, but if someone has a PTC, I just don't get why they don't carry when they can. (I have a relative like that and I don't get it, but to each their own. He says he doesn't want to put his assets at risk, but to me, my greatest asset is my life - and NOT carrying is putting that at risk, but that's how I look at it.)
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby jspace on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:16 pm

grousemaster wrote:
jspace wrote:It's this line that jumps out to me:
(Re: ) Oh. Well ill have my friend get it. He has all permts.


I think that's where people are getting "straw sale" from.

No such thing as a straw sale between private parties.

Hence the quotes. Most people don't know that.
If someone told me that though, that someone else will come and pick it up or you are picking it up for someone else, I would turn them down too.
This is the only reason that makes sense in this dialog to deny the sale, IMO.
I agree with 45Badger, it's not necessary to do more than you have to. Are you a resident of this state (or adjoining for long guns)? Show driver's license to prove it. Are you a criminal or illegal alien? I cant verify either of those speaking with a third party, unless third party is a dealer. But doing it that way would be silly.
Yes, I realize that the second question can't/won't be verified, but it's at least a litmus test. If they get squirrelly or act funny then they're lying and they get sent home. If I can't tell they're lying, then who cares? I didn't know they lied at the time.
Additionally, I have no idea what the exact laws are for interstate stuff. AFAIK, pistols=no; rifles/shotguns=neighboring states. I'm sure it's way more complex than that, but it's hard enough figuring out the laws that apply in one state, much less all of them. Basically it comes down to I have no idea if I could sell a shotgun to a guy from Texas while he's visiting or not, so I wouldn't.
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby tazdevil on Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:03 am

XDM45 wrote:Right now I've never sold a gun, but that doesn't mean I won't in the future. Having given thought to this already, I've established my own personal guidelines for it. Yours will vary, and that's ok, but this is how I will do it when the time comes.....

1) You must have a MN ID that is current and valid.
2) You must have a MN Permit To Carry that is current and valid.
3) The full name and addresses on both items above must match exactly.
4) You must pay cash in full at time of purchase (USD of course).
5) The price is firm. I don't negotiate and play games if I want $500, that's what I ask for. I don't jack the price up and then "come down" to my number.
6) I do not deliver to you and we will meet in a public place where I'll have the item(s) with me.

As for craigslist, I anonymize the email, make them give me a phone number, then I block mine when calling them. If they don't anwser, I leave a message stating I will call back. I know all of this seems really anal, but I've learned my lesson long ago with CL nutjobs. Keep them and most buyers at a distance. As I said, I haven't ever sold a gun, so except for the first three, all the others have always applied to me whenever I've sold stuff on CL or anywhere else locally.



Care to divulge about the CL nutjobs?
1911 Fan quote in memoirium about carrying:
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby XDM45 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:23 pm

Well, they are easy to find. Just look at the Jobs section for IT work, or "Computer Gigs"... they want the world and want to pay near to nothing or nothing. Those are the most obvious, but pretty much CL is full of people who want to buy goods and services for very low and sell very high at unrealistic levels. I'm all for buying low and selling high too, but within reasonable expectations.

Here's some examples of some wacko postings:

New PC and Network Installs

Need 1 technician familiar with running network cable for up to a 2 week gig. Pay is by the hour on a 1099 basis. You must have your own reliable transportation and be reliable yourself and show up every day. Must be familiar with installing network cable and basic PC equipment. All work is indoors. Email resume or list of experience if interested. Need to be able to start later this week. Work is spread across many locations throughout the cities, but each day is centered on one area geographically. No pay for travel to and from first and last location each day, but travel inbetween locations is paid. Must pass background check.
Location: TC Metro
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Compensation: no pay

Computer Tech
I am looking for a computer tech to help us install software and setup computers for training labs and other purposes. I'm looking for networking and customer service skills. There is no programming involved.
We have several projects to work on Thursday-Saturday and potentially in the near future.
Interested parties should reply with phone number and resume.
Location: Minneapolis
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Compensation: $12.50/hour

Apache Server Admin

We need someone to do an audit on our current Apache server. It is running WHM/cPanel


We are having significant performance and securities issues. We are specifically looking for securities vulnerabilities, reporting, IP management -- oh, and some things that we have no idea we need.
From this audit we will then engage to fix and resolve critical and important issues.

You do not need to be local.
Since you will be going into our server we will need someone who has some independently verifiable credentials and references.
Thank you.
Location: Minneapolis
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Compensation: $20/hour

Yeah, I'm $100 an hour for contract work and after I get some certifications on and a bit more experience with certain hardware, I'm moving that up to $150. My day job pays well over $20 an hour. Who are they kidding?
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby photogpat on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:32 am

XDM45 wrote:Well, they are easy to find. Just look at the Jobs section for IT work, or "Computer Gigs"... they want the world and want to pay near to nothing or nothing. Those are the most obvious, but pretty much CL is full of people who want to buy goods and services for very low and sell very high at unrealistic levels. I'm all for buying low and selling high too, but within reasonable expectations.


^ This!

In what used to be my primary line of work (photography), CL has killed the low/mid range market. Too many people willing to work all day, plus a day or editing, for free or "portfolio building". Their works blows, but who cares, they work for free! I've run into clients who turned me down in favor of a $ bargain off Craigslist....nearly universal disappointment with the service they received.

Unfortunately the market bears what the market bears - as long as their are websites recommending people advertise their services for free to "build a client/portfolio, etc..." you'll continue to see this garbage. Luckily, all the crap means that those who've had a bad experience come to me next time! :)
Nothing to see here. Continue swimming.
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Re: Problems with armslist denizen

Postby XDM45 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:47 am

photogpat wrote:
XDM45 wrote:Well, they are easy to find. Just look at the Jobs section for IT work, or "Computer Gigs"... they want the world and want to pay near to nothing or nothing. Those are the most obvious, but pretty much CL is full of people who want to buy goods and services for very low and sell very high at unrealistic levels. I'm all for buying low and selling high too, but within reasonable expectations.


^ This!

In what used to be my primary line of work (photography), CL has killed the low/mid range market. Too many people willing to work all day, plus a day or editing, for free or "portfolio building". Their works blows, but who cares, they work for free! I've run into clients who turned me down in favor of a $ bargain off Craigslist....nearly universal disappointment with the service they received.

Unfortunately the market bears what the market bears - as long as their are websites recommending people advertise their services for free to "build a client/portfolio, etc..." you'll continue to see this garbage. Luckily, all the crap means that those who've had a bad experience come to me next time! :)


Well, the people who are cheap are cheap whether they are buying or selling, so at that point, I say good riddance and don't worry about their problems. However, if they try and whittle my rate down, I tell people that I'm $1 an hour to push buttons, and $99 an hour to know which buttons to push, in which order, and how that will affect the entire system. I also have 35 years experience and have professional IT industry certifications; but if none of that matters to you, then I say this: If they are willing to work all day long to fix a problem, they don't value your time or their own. When they screw it up (and they will screw it up badly), it will cost you even more money to have someone who actually knows what they're doing, to fix it because they are learning on your dime and on your time.
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