Gun Free School Zones....

[Heffay]

Ok, well lets just make this clear and simple.

I would be willing to give up some extra money, either in taxes or whatever, in order to help fund better security in our Schools, even if I didn't currently have kids in School.

Would you do the same?

No. Kids aren't unsafe in our schools.

How many people does alcohol kill a year? 10 times as many? Why don't you spend more money trying to fight that? It'll have a significantly bigger bang for your buck than "making schools safe".

[IDPA Shooter]

Here is what an expert, if you agree that Massad Ayoob has some experience and credibility, recommended after Va Tech:

Basically it comes down to this from Mas:

"We’ve seen from the collective Israeli, Peruvian, and Filipino experience that a program of arming teachers and other responsible adults on campus – adults who have volunteered for the program, and been expressly trained to handle it – has dramatically reduced mass murders in these institutional environments."

The full article is linked below:

http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net ... survey.htm

Others have said they would offer free permit training and I would too for teachers and other school workers who volunteered and had permission to take this training. However, if they are protecting my grandson and other children, I would want them to have a much higher level of training and demonstrated skill at arms than my class or any basic permit class I'm aware of provides. Getting them trained would not be the hard part, getting laws that make sense will be the difficult part.

As a Utah instructor I'm aware that permit holders can and do lawfully carry in public schools and universities in Utah. Aware of any school shootings in Utah? Trolley Square Mall in Utah, shooting stopped by the police officer, mall was posted, he was off duty and out of his jurisdiction. Shocker, yet another shooting in a gun free zone.

Yes, I'm terribly sorry for any the loss of life, particularly the young lives in CT. World Champion shooter and 10 year police officer Robert Vogel posted on Facebook he wished he had been there, with or without a gun. I'm with you Robert. These folks generally stop and\or kill themselves when met with resistance.

I'll end with a quote from one of my favorite instructors John Farnam, and a hero Marine and 40 year LEO I am privileged to call my friend:

"Safety protocols," and "security systems," when they don't include
meaningful backup, represent little more than naive self-deception.

It is the same delusional thinking that causes the gullible to place way
too much faith in "gated communities," and electronic security systems.
All this has some value, but none of it will ever significantly dissuade a
determined and evil intruder, as we see.

Such evil men can only be affirmatively and unconditionedly repelled with
gunfire. Nothing less will be effective. And, when good people, already
on the scene, are not able, prepared, willing, and trained to deliver
precision gunfire at the critical moment, everything else is just idle
conversation!

When the idea of arming commercial pilots was first broached, it was
predictably greeted by the liberal press as crazy and criminal. Now, it is an
accepted practice, and there have been precious few negative issues. "

[jgalt]

Ok, well lets just make this clear and simple.

I would be willing to give up some extra money, either in taxes or whatever, in order to help fund better security in our Schools, even if I didn't currently have kids in School.

Would you do the same?

#1 - not via taxes. The government (at all levels) already takes in waaaay more than it needs. If it wants to spend more on school security, let it find the funds in the budget it already has - maybe by making sure that government employees (on average) don't make twice as much as comparable private sector employees...?

#2 - no, because I don't believe more money is a realistic solution to the problem. A better solution? Here's one...

Allow those employees & staff who already have permits or wish to get one to carry in school, and let everyone know that they are. Not which ones, obviously, but just that there are folks there who are armed. Basically, make sure that no school is ever again mistaken for a "gun free zone". These kinds of attacks happen almost exclusively where the perp believes no one will be able to effectively fight back - take schools out of that category, and you'll dramatically reduce the odds that a school will be attacked...

#3 - if I could be persuaded that increased funds were in fact required in order to implement a plan that might actually work to make schools safer, then I'd be fine with doing so. I just don't think anyone will ever persuade me, primarily for the 2 reasons already given...

To sum up - I am all in favor of making changes that will both decrease the chances of future attacks happening, and increase the chances that when they do they'll be met with equal or greater force immediately and ended more quickly. Since I don't believe more money is required to make these changes, I'm not willing to spend more.

And just so it is crystal clear - the fact I don't want another penny taken from my taxes (i.e. claimed by the government) doesn't in any way mean I want to see your kids, or anyone else's be harmed, in school or anywhere else. Anyone claiming that the only way to show that you care about something is to support spending more money on it - especially if no evidence is given that more money will actually improve anything - is making a false equivalency argument that should be rejected immediately...

[Mn01r6]

a bunch of stuff I agree with

+1billion

[XDM45]

Ok, well lets just make this clear and simple.

I would be willing to give up some extra money, either in taxes or whatever, in order to help fund better security in our Schools, even if I didn't currently have kids in School.

Would you do the same?

Are you willing to give up some extra money or have you gave up some extra money? The first does no one any good, but the second one may. Until you do give up some extra money, well, I don't see any difference between you and jgalt in regards to the actual giving of cash - except that you want to spend his money, but not your own. I think you have a career in politics ahead of you, Senator.

Other than that, I 1000% agree with jgalt's last post.

[smokintone]

Ok, well lets just make this clear and simple.

I would be willing to give up some extra money, either in taxes or whatever, in order to help fund better security in our Schools, even if I didn't currently have kids in School.

Would you do the same?

Are you willing to give up some extra money or have you gave up some extra money? The first does no one any good, but the second one may. Until you do give up some extra money, well, I don't see any difference between you and jgalt in regards to the actual giving of cash - except that you want to spend his money, but not your own. I think you have a career in politics ahead of you, Senator.

Other than that, I 1000% agree with jgalt's last post.

Don't want to spend my own money? Have you been hearing what I'm saying? I've said several times I would give up more money. And you were talking about not reading what people say correctly....

[smokintone]

And I have also offered to any teachers or child care provivders, free permit and defensive handgun training. So yeah, I am willing to give of myself, to give up money in the hopes that I could help be a part of a solution.

[smokintone]

Allow those employees & staff who already have permits or wish to get one to carry in school, and let everyone know that they are. Not which ones, obviously, but just that there are folks there who are armed. Basically, make sure that no school is ever again mistaken for a "gun free zone". These kinds of attacks happen almost exclusively where the perp believes no one will be able to effectively fight back - take schools out of that category, and you'll dramatically reduce the odds that a school will be attacked...

I agree this would be the best solution.

[mrp]

My point is this. I would be willing to give more of MY money to help ensure our Schools could get better security. Either hardened security or armed, or a combo of both, not only for MY kids, but also for the betterment of everybody else's kids as well.

Seems others here would not be willing to do that, and I find that to be sad.

What you said was:

my kids are worth any amount of money it world take to keep them safe.

That's quite a bit different than: Everybody's kids are worth more of my money for better security.

Don't mistake opposition to your initial comment as opposition to your newly reformulated comment. I will always oppose "If we save even one life, it's worth it, no matter what the cost!" and "We must do something! This is something, therefore, we must do it!" as misguided and dangerous arguments.

[XDM45]

My point is this. I would be willing to give more of MY money to help ensure our Schools could get better security. Either hardened security or armed, or a combo of both, not only for MY kids, but also for the betterment of everybody else's kids as well.

Seems others here would not be willing to do that, and I find that to be sad.

What you said was:

my kids are worth any amount of money it world take to keep them safe.

That's quite a bit different than: Everybody's kids are worth more of my money for better security.

Don't mistake opposition to your initial comment as opposition to your newly reformulated comment. I will always oppose "If we save even one life, it's worth it, no matter what the cost!" and "We must do something! This is something, therefore, we must do it!" as misguided and dangerous arguments.

+1 @mrp

Maybe he should have said that his kids are worth any amount of his money it world take to keep them safe? I think on that we could all agree.

[xd ED]

At the risk of putting this thread back on the rails, I commend IDPA Shooter for the thoughtful post. I will read the linked information later at home.

[smokintone]

You can say what you like, but I made it clear that I included everybody's kids. I stick with my point. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's my opinion that if a person isn't willing to give of themselves without worrying about how it effects their wallet, over the safety of kids, I find that very wrong, and selfish.

[smokintone]

My point is this. I would be willing to give more of MY money to help ensure our Schools could get better security. Either hardened security or armed, or a combo of both, not only for MY kids, but also for the betterment of everybody else's kids as well.

Seems others here would not be willing to do that, and I find that to be sad.

What you said was:

my kids are worth any amount of money it world take to keep them safe.

That's quite a bit different than: Everybody's kids are worth more of my money for better security.

Don't mistake opposition to your initial comment as opposition to your newly reformulated comment. I will always oppose "If we save even one life, it's worth it, no matter what the cost!" and "We must do something! This is something, therefore, we must do it!" as misguided and dangerous arguments.

+1 @mrp

Maybe he should have said that his kids are worth any amount of his money it world take to keep them safe? I think on that we could all agree.

I did say MY kids to begin with, but I have made it very clear on a couple of occasions that I mean EVERYBODY"S kids.

[xd ED]

[quote="smokintone"]My point is this. I would be willing to give more of MY money to help ensure our Schools could get better security. Either hardened security or armed, or a combo of both, not only for MY kids, but also for the betterment of everybody else's kids as well.

Seems others here would not be willing to do that, and I find that to be sad.

What you said was:

my kids are worth any amount of money it world take to keep them safe.

That's quite a bit different than: Everybody's kids are worth more of my money for better security.

Don't mistake opposition to your initial comment as opposition to your newly reformulated comment. I will always oppose "If we save even one life, it's worth it, no matter what the cost!" and "We must do something! This is something, therefore, we must do it!" as misguided and dangerous arguments.

+1 @mrp

Maybe he should have said that his kids are worth any amount of his money it world take to keep them safe? I think on that we could all agree.

I did say MY kids to begin with, but I have made it very clear on a couple of occasions that I mean EVERYBODY"S kids.[/quote]

You're either operating on the assumption that everyone agrees that your course.of action is the correct one, or you are unconcerned with the wishes of others, as long as you can control the use of their resources to accomplish your ends.

Sound familiar?

[smokintone]

I'm done beating a dead horse.