AR15 Lower Raw Forgings

[shooter115]

I don't have an 07 FFL. What you're talking about doing has been done before with businesses who have 07 FFL's - so it doesn't matter if someone at the ATF decided they were manufacturing guns, they'd only have to account for not putting their name on it and all that (they would - not me), not that a gun was produced on their machinery without proper licensing. That's not something that's been tried in court, so it very much is grey area, as it's an ATF determination away from being illegal.

Here's where it doesn't jive for me - jakl is providing you a semi complete lower they've "purchased", they've written the program, you've paid a full retail price for the finished product, and all you've done is come push the cycle start button. Who's manufacturing the firearm? Are you going to go to court and try to say you made it because you pushed cycle start? I want NOTHING to do with that.

What I've offered people is the use of my manual machine. They show up with their "paper weight," and I help them modify it with their own hands on my machinery into a legal firearm. That's a much better exposure to manufacturing IMO, and it's indisputable who MADE the gun.

The guy obviously makes a lot of gun parts, and that's cool - I like that. But saying this is a favor is a bit of a stretch. I hope for his sake he's got an 07 FFL. The CIA's been collecting all our posts about it from the get go and it's pretty damn ignorant to say "they don't know I have one" after blabbing it up here that you're going down there to make one.

So I'll say again - this seems like a lot of work to go through for an unfinished product.

FJ.......Really!!...... you should just stop now.

[FJ540]

Care to show me something in err with what I've just said? Jakl has an 07 FFL, what he does under that is his business - I personally wouldn't touch that "party" concept with someone else's Mosin...

The govt openly admits harvesting all digital transmissions and only promises to look at the emails that are 6 months old or older, unless they think there's a current threat involved based on triggered key words they're searching everything for all the time. Everything you and I post on this site is fair game for the feds. Our IP addresses, our linked accounts, every word. You'll notice there's no "S" after HTTP: in the address bar, so what you type goes flying into cyberspace for anyone to read - and read they do!

[shooter115]

Yes, I realize big brother watches everything we do or say... Thank you (Anti) Patriot Act. But theres nothing illegal about about building your own firearm.

[FJ540]

There's also nothing illegal about jakl transferring you one you pushed cycle start on after filling out a 4473 and doing the NICS check. I'm just saying what they're proposing is something I want nothing to do with, and certainly am glad I don't have to represent them if it were to go to court.

Make all the guns you want, have fun, I'm glad jakl is getting his compensation for making guns for you guys - that's not what I've taken issue with in any of this. I don't think you're getting a good deal. I also question the legality of the concept, but I have no objection to you guys doing it somewhere other than my shop. I also think the laws are unjust and stupid - that doesn't mean people don't rot in jail for breaking them.

[jshuberg]

I think it all boils down to a single question - what type of transaction is taking place when we go to jakl's facility to manufacture a lower receiver. Is he manufacturing the receiver and selling it to us, or are we paying him for access to his facilities, training and expertise so that *we* can manufacture a receiver ourselves using his equipment. The answer to this question is the latter, and this has been done many many times across the country by many people.

The fact that the manufacturing process has been simplified via automation and programming doesn't change the nature of the transaction. He is offering to let us use his facility, for a price, and give us instruction on the process of manufacturing a lower receiver.

Let me use another example, lets say I was a FFL07 SOT2 and manufactured a machinegun. If I want another company to do the anodizing I have two options, I can either use another FFL07 SOT2 and obtain a variance so that they are not also required to put their information on the receiver, or I can physically be in the same facility while the anodizing process is being performed. In the latter case, because I was physically on site no transfer of the firearm has taken place.

If I rent access to the machine, put the material in, operate the machine (whatever is involved with that), and remove the completed lower, no transfer of a firearm has taken place. It's been in my possession ever since it became a firearm.

I think you're getting too bent out of shape. I get that you think that jakl is charging more than you think he should, or that the drive isn't worth it or whatever, but the legal aspect is pretty straight forward. Something as simple as a receipt or rental agreement would eliminate any ambiguity as to what type of transaction it was, or what the payment was for.

[BemidjiDweller]

I donno about everyone else, but machining my own lower isn't about keeping it away from the FED for me. If it were, I sure as hell wouldn't go talking about it on the internet. It's more about making that AR build I have plans for a little more mine.

Seems like this thread has gotten a little of track. So, does anyone know a place in the cities where the OP could go and finish off his lowers?

[xd ED]

I can't make JAKL's get together, but I'm getting 2 pcs from him. There's much info available online as to how how to complete the lower with nothing more complex than a drill press using some jigs purchased online. Kinda tempted to try that with at least one of them. I'm no machinist but if I understand the operations they don't appear too complex.

[Holland&Holland]

I don't have an 07 FFL. What you're talking about doing has been done before with businesses who have 07 FFL's - so it doesn't matter if someone at the ATF decided they were manufacturing guns, they'd only have to account for not putting their name on it and all that (they would - not me), not that a gun was produced on their machinery without proper licensing. That's not something that's been tried in court, so it very much is grey area, as it's an ATF determination away from being illegal.

Here's where it doesn't jive for me - jakl is providing you a semi complete lower they've "purchased", they've written the program, you've paid a full retail price for the finished product, and all you've done is come push the cycle start button. Who's manufacturing the firearm? Are you going to go to court and try to say you made it because you pushed cycle start? I want NOTHING to do with that.

What I've offered people is the use of my manual machine. They show up with their "paper weight," and I help them modify it with their own hands on my machinery into a legal firearm. That's a much better exposure to manufacturing IMO, and it's indisputable who MADE the gun.

The guy obviously makes a lot of gun parts, and that's cool - I like that. But saying this is a favor is a bit of a stretch. I hope for his sake he's got an 07 FFL. The CIA's been collecting all our posts about it from the get go and it's pretty damn ignorant to say "they don't know I have one" after blabbing it up here that you're going down there to make one.

So I'll say again - this seems like a lot of work to go through for an unfinished product.

It would seem then that if you do not show up you have yourself covered. Just a thought. Of course if the CIA has been collecting these posts then I would guess they have been looking through all posts on this site so, good luck with that my friend.

[gearguy10]

Just for giggles - walk into a few machine shops in the Mpls area and see if they can help you - make sure to report back on what you find.

Not that I want to keep this going at all but...I needed a custom bracket made for my 4-wheeler this summer. I made a mock-up of it out of cardboard and walked into a shop about 2 blocks from my house that I never knew existed until I did a search on the internet for local machine shops. The floor boss took me back and handed me off to a guy working some kind of press. He took some measurements with his calipers, punched some numbers in, turned a dial a couple times and handed me exactly what I was looking for about 20 minutes later. He told me not to worry about it but I left a 20 with the secretary at the front desk and asked her to give it to him when he went on break. So.....I'm guessing that wasn't the reaction I was supposed to get from machinists?

Anyway, back to the original question...I was just curious. Not going to do it. I'll cross my fingers and toes and hope I can get at least one more lower in my lifetime at a decent price.

As for the CIA/FBI whatnot...let's just say I have a little Big Brother who works for No Such Agency and you can be assured this stuff is being scrubbed for anything that might be considered questionable. Even the documents and things you save on your hard drive are fair game. If your computer has an internet connection they can get in and out. And they do. Oh, they also have a digital voice signature for most of us thanks to our abundant use of cellphones. Pay-as-you-go throw-aways are pointless. They know who you are and where you are the second you say hello.

[RAGGED]

Someone looks like a complete jack-ass....... not naming names.... but someone......

[jshuberg]

Not only that, but Bigfoot put a chip in your brain so he can listen to what song you sing to yourself when you're bored!

Sorry, couldn't help myself :p

[jakl]

Just for giggles - walk into a few machine shops in the Mpls area and see if they can help you - make sure to report back on what you find.

Not that I want to keep this going at all but...I needed a custom bracket made for my 4-wheeler this summer. I made a mock-up of it out of cardboard and walked into a shop about 2 blocks from my house that I never knew existed until I did a search on the internet for local machine shops. The floor boss took me back and handed me off to a guy working some kind of press. He took some measurements with his calipers, punched some numbers in, turned a dial a couple times and handed me exactly what I was looking for about 20 minutes later. He told me not to worry about it but I left a 20 with the secretary at the front desk and asked her to give it to him when he went on break. So.....I'm guessing that wasn't the reaction I was supposed to get from machinists?

Anyway, back to the original question...I was just curious. Not going to do it. I'll cross my fingers and toes and hope I can get at least one more lower in my lifetime at a decent price.

As for the CIA/FBI whatnot...let's just say I have a little Big Brother who works for No Such Agency and you can be assured this stuff is being scrubbed for anything that might be considered questionable. Even the documents and things you save on your hard drive are fair game. If your computer has an internet connection they can get in and out. And they do. Oh, they also have a digital voice signature for most of us thanks to our abundant use of cellphones. Pay-as-you-go throw-aways are pointless. They know who you are and where you are the second you say hello.

I guess I was referring to walking into a machine shop with a unfinished lower, explain to them what you are after. If they have any smarts and don't have an 07, they won't touch it with a 10ft pole. Big, BIG difference in a bracket and a firearm.

[SIGP240]

Dude in N. Branch has milling shop set up for EBR LWRS