valleyfair situation / good or bad shoot

[KimberJoe]

Wadero- If I came across you or anyone else in that situation I would not pull a gun. I would however intervene!! I may not be able to take all eight but by god I'll take as many as I can. To allow eight POS to wail on a fellow human being is not in my program. They may get me , but I live, chances are good you will too. If we don't live, then death has it's place. I would never do anything wearing a gun that I would not do if NOT wearing a gun. It would be my RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen in these United States to help my fellow man. I also think that if a crowd was watching and they saw someone crazier than a s***house rat intervene, it would be much easier for them to follow suit.

I'm glad I wasn't there, because I would have drawn down on them. There is no doubt in my mind. And I more than likely would have gone to jail for it, but it would have been for a good reason.

And as far as firing a round into the air goes, it's safe, watch Mythbusters or take a physics course if you think it isn't.

[Wadero]

And as far as firing a round into the air goes, it's safe, watch Mythbusters or take a physics course if you think it isn't.

And it is just plain fun.

[Duane J]

:gun:..................

+1 on this one.

my personal belief: if i'm willing to carry to save my life, or the lives of my loved ones, who am i to say the life of some stranger is worth less. he is a father, same as i, a husband, he has friends and coworkers. when he is laid in his hospital bed in a coma, could i look around the room at his loved ones and explain to them that i had the knowlege/skill/equipment to save his life...... but didn't? no.

the legal issues sound as though you'd be clear. the moral issues on this one are heavier. mob mentality or not, i would have a hard time, an impossible time, standing by watching someone take what appears to be a fatal beating, with their family standing by helplessly. mob or not, 2 warnings, rounds goin' down range..... that simple. my only fear in that situation would be lack of a clear shot.

as far as being rushed by a mob. it would most certainly happen if you are missing. if you are landing shots, not many sober living humans will charge certain death.

D

[princewally]

http://www.startribune.com/local/26146079.html

Detectives have reinterviewed the couple and their two daughters. The amended charges give this account:

As the family was leaving the old-fashioned portrait studio about 11:40 that night, the victim's two daughters and a female cousin walked about 20 yards ahead of the family. One of the suspects, later identified as Andrew D. Shannon, 19, tapped the cousin on her head with an inflatable bat. The victim's 15-year-old daughter told Shannon to keep his hands off her cousin. The father caught up and told Shannon that he had no business touching the girl. Shannon and Arnold became irate and started swearing at family members.

Arnold got in the 15-year-old daughter's face and her dad got between them. Arnold puffed out his chest and the father pushed his face away and told him to back off. The father gathered his family and headed for the exit gate. Shannon got on his cell phone and was overheard saying he needed back-up.

A group of eight ran toward the family and hit the father from behind, knocking him down. Several attacked him. He got up, saw Arnold attacking his 15-year-old daughter and punched Arnold in the face. Then the group turned on the father, kicking and jumping on him as his wife and a daughter tried to protect him.

Police arrived and arrested seven suspects; the eighth escaped and has not been found. The wife identified the seven at Valleyfair and told police afterward she was very frightened when she heard one suspect say on his cell phone, "Find out what vehicles they're driving."

The victim and his family fear retaliation and have not been named. Calls to their home Thursday were not returned.

[selurcspi]

http://www.startribune.com/local/26146079.html

Detectives have reinterviewed the couple and their two daughters. The amended charges give this account:

As the family was leaving the old-fashioned portrait studio about 11:40 that night, the victim's two daughters and a female cousin walked about 20 yards ahead of the family. One of the suspects, later identified as Andrew D. Shannon, 19, tapped the cousin on her head with an inflatable bat. The victim's 15-year-old daughter told Shannon to keep his hands off her cousin. The father caught up and told Shannon that he had no business touching the girl. Shannon and Arnold became irate and started swearing at family members.

Arnold got in the 15-year-old daughter's face and her dad got between them. Arnold puffed out his chest and the father pushed his face away and told him to back off. The father gathered his family and headed for the exit gate. Shannon got on his cell phone and was overheard saying he needed back-up.

A group of eight ran toward the family and hit the father from behind, knocking him down. Several attacked him. He got up, saw Arnold attacking his 15-year-old daughter and punched Arnold in the face. Then the group turned on the father, kicking and jumping on him as his wife and a daughter tried to protect him.

Police arrived and arrested seven suspects; the eighth escaped and has not been found. The wife identified the seven at Valleyfair and told police afterward she was very frightened when she heard one suspect say on his cell phone, "Find out what vehicles they're driving."

The victim and his family fear retaliation and have not been named. Calls to their home Thursday were not returned.

Ir's closer to the truth, but not quite what really went on.....Keep digging, the truth is out there.

[princewally]

Ir's closer to the truth, but not quite what really went on.....Keep digging, the truth is out there.

Care to share?

[selurcspi]

Ir's closer to the truth, but not quite what really went on.....Keep digging, the truth is out there.

Care to share?

I'd like to but I can't.

I'm fit to bust here, and have been for a while. It will all come out eventually.

[princewally]

Ir's closer to the truth, but not quite what really went on.....Keep digging, the truth is out there.

Care to share?

I'd like to but I can't.

I'm fit to bust here, and have been for a while. It will all come out eventually.

Can you quit hinting, then*? My curiosity is killing me.


*Not that you have to, or course.

[bobby b]

I'm fit to bust here, and have been for a while. It will all come out eventually.

If this is about where the guy was holding the bat, and what organ he was pretending it to be, I don't know that it adds that much to the story.

[Pinnacle]

Wadero- If I came across you or anyone else in that situation I would not pull a gun. I would however intervene!! I may not be able to take all eight but by god I'll take as many as I can. To allow eight POS to wail on a fellow human being is not in my program. They may get me , but I live, chances are good you will too. If we don't live, then death has it's place. I would never do anything wearing a gun that I would not do if NOT wearing a gun. It would be my RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen in these United States to help my fellow man. I also think that if a crowd was watching and they saw someone crazier than a s***house rat intervene, it would be much easier for them to follow suit.

I'm glad I wasn't there, because I would have drawn down on them. There is no doubt in my mind. And I more than likely would have gone to jail for it, but it would have been for a good reason.

And as far as firing a round into the air goes, it's safe, watch Mythbusters or take a physics course if you think it isn't.

I can hear it now

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client watched Mythbusters and thought it completely safe to fire one into the air....." Let's see how far that gets ya....

Here are the 3 Rules of using a handgun for self defense that I teach in Class....

1. Protect Self
2. Protect Family
3. Everyone else should have brought their own gun......

[Tutmos]

Wadero- If I came across you or anyone else in that situation I would not pull a gun. I would however intervene!! I may not be able to take all eight but by god I'll take as many as I can. To allow eight POS to wail on a fellow human being is not in my program. They may get me , but I live, chances are good you will too. If we don't live, then death has it's place. I would never do anything wearing a gun that I would not do if NOT wearing a gun. It would be my RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen in these United States to help my fellow man. I also think that if a crowd was watching and they saw someone crazier than a s***house rat intervene, it would be much easier for them to follow suit.

I'm glad I wasn't there, because I would have drawn down on them. There is no doubt in my mind. And I more than likely would have gone to jail for it, but it would have been for a good reason.

And as far as firing a round into the air goes, it's safe, watch Mythbusters or take a physics course if you think it isn't.

I can hear it now

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client watched Mythbusters and thought it completely safe to fire one into the air....." Let's see how far that gets ya....

Here are the 3 Rules of using a handgun for self defense that I teach in Class....

1. Protect Self
2. Protect Family
3. Everyone else should have brought their own gun......

It's called terminal velocity and is a reality. A bullet fired into the air is never going to kill someone on the way back down unless it's explosive or a giant slug that weighs 1/4 lbs. I could bruise someone or give them a welt though. Maybe if it had a needle point on it and was of such good design to be stable in its downward fall.

[KimberJoe]

Wadero- If I came across you or anyone else in that situation I would not pull a gun. I would however intervene!! I may not be able to take all eight but by god I'll take as many as I can. To allow eight POS to wail on a fellow human being is not in my program. They may get me , but I live, chances are good you will too. If we don't live, then death has it's place. I would never do anything wearing a gun that I would not do if NOT wearing a gun. It would be my RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen in these United States to help my fellow man. I also think that if a crowd was watching and they saw someone crazier than a s***house rat intervene, it would be much easier for them to follow suit.

I'm glad I wasn't there, because I would have drawn down on them. There is no doubt in my mind. And I more than likely would have gone to jail for it, but it would have been for a good reason.

And as far as firing a round into the air goes, it's safe, watch Mythbusters or take a physics course if you think it isn't.

I can hear it now

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client watched Mythbusters and thought it completely safe to fire one into the air....." Let's see how far that gets ya....

Here are the 3 Rules of using a handgun for self defense that I teach in Class....

1. Protect Self
2. Protect Family
3. Everyone else should have brought their own gun......

Try a physics class then.

[phorvick]

The problem with firing a gun into the air and claiming the return of the bullet cannot hurt, i.e. relying on the concept of "terminal velocity" is primarily that the liklihood of being able to, under stress and possibly some movement, fire perfectly vertical is very unlikely. Thus, pure terminal velocity is not the true speed of the bullet impacting the ground. The simplistic concept is that if you add in a horizontal component into the equation, you can exceed terminal velocity by a great deal.

A US Army study showed that a 150 grain bullet fired vertically into the air would obtain a terminal velocity of about 200 mph (vs a typical sky diver in free fall, arms/legs extended of about 120 mph). I would opine that even that relatively slow speed might well cause injury depending on numerous factors.

The biggest problem with warning shots is that they come down "somewhere", and you cannot control it to any great extent.

[DeanC]

Are these jokers out of jail?

I was talking to a DNR CO yesterday and she said that some guys bum-rushed Smokey Bear Wednesday at the State Fair, knocking him to the ground and kicking him, then they ran off into the crowd.

[Tutmos]

The problem with firing a gun into the air and claiming the return of the bullet cannot hurt, i.e. relying on the concept of "terminal velocity" is primarily that the liklihood of being able to, under stress and possibly some movement, fire perfectly vertical is very unlikely. Thus, pure terminal velocity is not the true speed of the bullet impacting the ground. The simplistic concept is that if you add in a horizontal component into the equation, you can exceed terminal velocity by a great deal.

A US Army study showed that a 150 grain bullet fired vertically into the air would obtain a terminal velocity of about 200 mph (vs a typical sky diver in free fall, arms/legs extended of about 120 mph). I would opine that even that relatively slow speed might well cause injury depending on numerous factors.

The biggest problem with warning shots is that they come down "somewhere", and you cannot control it to any great extent.

Horizontal component of velocity will have even less impact unless you've got really bad semi circular canals and shoot below 45 degrees above the horizontal. At those angles you're likely to take someones head off before we enter the realm of terminal velocities of any kind. The relatively large frontal area vs. mass of pistol ammunition will slow down even faster in the horizontal plane and have a slower terminal velocity as well as the blunt tips having dramatically less pressure at the point of impact. I won't argue with the fact that it could give you a really good bruise or big bump, yes it might really hurt, but less than a rubber bullet. The odds of a death are analogous to the golden BB shot. The chances are probably on the order of the odds of death you face when flushing the toilet or turning on the TV.

When you get into sharp point rifle ammunition like a .308 there might be a higher chance of serious injury if the bullet manages not to tumble on its way back down since the force is so concentrated in the small tip. Firing a BMG round skyward would really be asking for trouble for example because of the large mass and concentrated point.