Awkward purchasing question

[sgruenhagen44]

It is illegal to have someone else buy for me. I don't plan on or want to do anything illegal.

Not if they buy it and then you buy it from them

[bobthing]

Pretty sure it is still illegal if there is INTENT to transfer after purchase, whether or not you actually pay for it.

[tazdevil]

I LIKE THIS and need one on the StCroix River where I lost all my firearms in a boating accident.

O.P. - by posting here, the NSA has your ID, location, and numbers. "George Orwell - 1984" (if I remember correctly) applies here today.

You guys are such noobs! You have to lose them properly. Losing them in the Big lake called Gichigami ensures no one will ever find them again, as I did. Unfortunately, that means I'll never find them either, as Lake Superior never gives up her dead.

[yukonjasper]

Too true the Big Lake is where I lost my entire collection just last year................sad sad day.................deepest part of the lake also - bad news.

As per the original post - Just purchase legally, if they come to get it, well................you own a gun and the constitution says you have the right to so you'll have to decide whether you'll take a stand. Sneeking around to get away with a purchase -off the books- can be more trouble and more work than you should be expending on something that is now perfectly legal. Save the cloak and dagger purchases for when they truly are illegal.

Psssst buddy, ya you...........wanna buy a Mosquito.............$1500 and its yours.................100 round of ammo will be an additional $2000.............

[20mm]

To make things very clear right off the bat, I have a MN permit to purchase and am not a criminal.

How does having a MN permit to purchase exclude you from being a criminal? Are you also a high school chemistry teacher who likes to experiment in secluded trailers?

You should just hang out at pawn-stores or gun shops often and wait for people to come in selling stuff. Then after they find out they're getting 30%+ below market value, approach them and see if they want to talk more outside.

[45Badger]

Don't let the ninnies scare you. Keep an eye out on this forum, armslist, other local places. In a week or so, somebody will be selling an AR without the "bill of sale" requirement. All you need to do is show our license and see theirs to confirm same state residency. Anything other than that is feel good gravy.

[Ty179]

While it's not illegal to transfer if you have a permit ( mn 609.66 and mn 624.713). I for one would never transfer without paperwork for my own protection.

Personally I'm the exact opposite; I've let things go because I will not provide a bill of sale and/or show my PTC. Licenses are fine, I like to see these to verify it's a MN resident, but I'm not going to let someone start copying down all of my information.

OP, the expectation of the law is for you to act prudent. If you don't feel comfortable with the buyer/seller, then you should follow your spider sense. Moreover, has anyone ever been prosecuted under any of the MN statutes? I'd like to see section 1 hold up in a court of law.

PS: some of you are using the term "assault weapon", I thought the idea was to shy away from that term these days?

[jgalt]

PS: some of you are using the term "assault weapon", I thought the idea was to shy away from that term these days?

The term is actually in the relevant statute (quoted on the previous page).

It is still a ******** term, of course, but it is both accurate & properly used in this particular context.

[Ty179]

PS: some of you are using the term "assault weapon", I thought the idea was to shy away from that term these days?

The term is actually in the relevant statute (quoted on the previous page).

It is still a ******** term, of course, but it is both accurate & properly used in this particular context.

Oh I saw it, I just think we should refrain from using it.

I agree 100%.

[jgalt]

PS: some of you are using the term "assault weapon", I thought the idea was to shy away from that term these days?

The term is actually in the relevant statute (quoted on the previous page).

It is still a ******** term, of course, but it is both accurate & properly used in this particular context.

Oh I saw it, I just think we should refrain from using it.

I agree 100%.

[greenfarmer]

Would you sell a gun (particularly an AR) to a stranger without getting a signed bill of sale? I know I wouldn't.

Your actions in creating and posting in this thread have, if anything, greatly increased your visibility to law enforcement.

I am OK with, and actually supportive of the government checking out things like this thread. If in the very unlikely chance I get a call or visit, they are more than welcomed to search anything they want. I only MIGHT purchase an AR. I already own a 12 gauge and a .270 deer rifle.

What I do have a problem with is them knowing that I absolutely DID purchase a gun that they might try to take away.

I'm just going to assume that you bought those guns by filling out a 4473? Unless they were bought long ago.

My point is. Once you have filled out a 4473. It's not technically the "gun" they are registering. Once that form is filled out and called into NICS. It's YOU that's registered. Doesn't matter if it's a long gun, or hand gun. YOU are registered as a gun owner. The only difference is if you have your PTP or PTC and are purchasing a handgun or EBR. But YOU are still registered. The 4473's don't get sent in, and when the phone call is made, all NICS' asks is whether it's a long gun or hand gun. They don't ask if your specifically buying an AR. That information isn't known unless ATF were to go into the local gun shop you bought it from and look at the 4473.

Another thing to remember is that 4473 is also a way to cover your butt. Having every one of your guns registered isn't always a bad thing. I have all of mine done. Even ones I have purchased privately. Also pictures of every serial number, and any and all receipts. I want it well documented of what I own for guns because of all of the "what ifs" out there. For instance... What if someone commit's a crime with a gun, and is out on the run, they have 2 guns with them. One was used in the crime, the other wasn't. The other isn't "known" about. But they ditch these guns in your garage or throw them in the trunk or box of your vehicle just before they are caught. Or they never get caught but ditch the guns on your property. If it's well documented what guns you own, it would be awful hard for the courts to say you have any affiliation to any of those two weapons that were used in committing a crime. Also, by doing a 4473, I have proof of when I registered a "used" gun that I bought, along with a signed and dated bill of sale. So if someone committed a crime with it before I bought it, it's another way of defense if that gun is somehow found, that I didn't own it at the time of the crime.

The thing is.... If your legal to purchase, you have your PTP or PTC, and will pass a NICS check, I would just go to a dealer and buy a new one. Stay legal and legit. You have nothing to worry about. If we want to fight all of this stupid nonsense gun legislation all of the time, then we need more people to follow the laws. Do it by the numbers, and by the books. The more people doing things legal, the better off we are. The 4473 isn't a bad thing. And in the right case it could save your butt.

[Squib Joe]

Once you have filled out a 4473. It's not technically the "gun" they are registering. Once that form is filled out and called into NICS. It's YOU that's registered. Doesn't matter if it's a long gun, or hand gun. YOU are registered as a gun owner.

The record of the NICS check is destroyed within 24 hours after a response has been given to the FFL. A NICS check is not a registration of the gun buyer or the gun.

Another thing to remember is that 4473 is also a way to cover your butt. Having every one of your guns registered isn't always a bad thing. I have all of mine done.

This is not possible if you live in Minnesota. There is no firearm registry in Minnesota, only a record - kept by the FFL - of the details of the transaction. This information is not given out without a formal request by the ATF. The exception is when a FFL gives up their license, in which case the records are given to the Attorney General's office. They end up in a huge warehouse where I've heard it is almost impossible to find anything - let alone records of an individual sale, or which citizen has purchased which guns.

[45Badger]

Would you sell a gun (particularly an AR) to a stranger without getting a signed bill of sale? I know I wouldn't.

Your actions in creating and posting in this thread have, if anything, greatly increased your visibility to law enforcement.

I am OK with, and actually supportive of the government checking out things like this thread. If in the very unlikely chance I get a call or visit, they are more than welcomed to search anything they want. I only MIGHT purchase an AR. I already own a 12 gauge and a .270 deer rifle.

What I do have a problem with is them knowing that I absolutely DID purchase a gun that they might try to take away.

I'm just going to assume that you bought those guns by filling out a 4473? Unless they were bought long ago.

My point is. Once you have filled out a 4473. It's not technically the "gun" they are registering. Once that form is filled out and called into NICS. It's YOU that's registered. Doesn't matter if it's a long gun, or hand gun. YOU are registered as a gun owner. The only difference is if you have your PTP or PTC and are purchasing a handgun or EBR. But YOU are still registered. The 4473's don't get sent in, and when the phone call is made, all NICS' asks is whether it's a long gun or hand gun. They don't ask if your specifically buying an AR. That information isn't known unless ATF were to go into the local gun shop you bought it from and look at the 4473.

Another thing to remember is that 4473 is also a way to cover your butt. Having every one of your guns registered isn't always a bad thing. I have all of mine done. Even ones I have purchased privately. Also pictures of every serial number, and any and all receipts. I want it well documented of what I own for guns because of all of the "what ifs" out there. For instance... What if someone commit's a crime with a gun, and is out on the run, they have 2 guns with them. One was used in the crime, the other wasn't. The other isn't "known" about. But they ditch these guns in your garage or throw them in the trunk or box of your vehicle just before they are caught. Or they never get caught but ditch the guns on your property. If it's well documented what guns you own, it would be awful hard for the courts to say you have any affiliation to any of those two weapons that were used in committing a crime. Also, by doing a 4473, I have proof of when I registered a "used" gun that I bought, along with a signed and dated bill of sale. So if someone committed a crime with it before I bought it, it's another way of defense if that gun is somehow found, that I didn't own it at the time of the crime.

The thing is.... If your legal to purchase, you have your PTP or PTC, and will pass a NICS check, I would just go to a dealer and buy a new one. Stay legal and legit. You have nothing to worry about. If we want to fight all of this stupid nonsense gun legislation all of the time, then we need more people to follow the laws. Do it by the numbers, and by the books. The more people doing things legal, the better off we are. The 4473 isn't a bad thing. And in the right case it could save your butt.

You have covered just about every paranoid worry-wort scenario imaginable. Good for you. Please don't ask other to follow that painful path. A buyer and seller must follow the written law. There is no need to do otherwise.

[Hmac]

Another thing to remember is that 4473 is also a way to cover your butt. Having every one of your guns registered isn't always a bad thing. I have all of mine done. Even ones I have purchased privately.

What a bizarre approach to firearms ownership.

How do you "register" a firearm? Whom do you "register" it with?

[jdege]

How do you "register" a firearm? Whom do you "register" it with?

I maintain my own registry.

Built the hardware myself, using plans I found online, and these RAM chips:



http://www4.vmi.edu/faculty/squirejc//Research/IC_Datasheets/digital_cmos/Write%20Only%20Memory.pdf