None of thier business

Gun related chat that doesn't fit in another forum

Re: None of thier business

Postby Hmac on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:08 pm

crbutler wrote:As a doc, there is no law that states you have to collect that information.

The whole gun violence thing was something that came up out of academia as a way to push an agenda. In fact, the CDC did a study (I think in the early 80's) that was so bad that it got congress to call for cutting their budget and caused no end of concern.

Nowdays, it seems that most of this drivel comes from the American Academy of Pediatrics. The American Academy of Family Practice tends to go along with it. They still try and push this as "public health" even though none of the studies seem to correlate to much of anything other than someone has to have a gun in order to shoot someone.


Almost all of the major specialty organizations have position statements regarding guns. They are pretty much opposed.


American College of Surgeons:
The following revised Statement on Firearm Injuries was approved in January 2013 by the Officers of the American College of Surgeons and its Board of Regents. It replaces the February 2000 statement that was developed by the Committee on Trauma and approved by the College's Board of Regents—that statement replaced an initial statement addressing firearm injuries developed in 1991.

Because violence inflicted by guns continues to be a daily event in the United States and mass casualties involving firearms threaten the health and safety of the public, the American College of Surgeons supports:

Legislation banning civilian access to assault weapons, large ammunition clips, and munitions designed for military and law enforcement agencies.
Enhancing mandatory background checks for the purchase of firearms to include gun shows and auctions.
Ensuring that health care professionals can fulfill their role in preventing firearm injuries by health screening, patient counseling, and referral to mental health services for those with behavioral medical conditions.
Developing and promoting proactive programs directed at improving safe gun storage and the teaching of non-violent conflict resolution for a culture that often glorifies guns and violence in media and gaming.
Evidence-based research on firearm injury and the creation of a national firearm injury database to inform federal health policy.




The American Academy of Pediatrics:
Firearm-related injuries and deaths can be prevented when guns are stored safely away from children and adolescents in a locked case. Because of the severe, permanent nature of gun injuries in children, the AAP supports the strongest-possible legislative and regulatory approaches to reduce the accessibility of guns to children and adolescents:

Consumer product regulations regarding child access, safety and design of guns

Child access prevention laws that enforce safe storage practices including the use of trigger locks, lock boxes, and gun safes

Regulation of the purchase of guns, including mandatory waiting periods, closure of the gun show loophole, mental health restrictions for gun purchases, and background checks

Restoration of the ban on the sale of assault weapons to the general public




American Academy of Family Practice
The Academy supports strong and robust enforcement of existing federal, state, and local laws and regulations regarding the manufacture, sale and possession of guns. Increased efforts to enforce current laws on illegal gun trafficking should have high priority for federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies.

The American Academy of Physicians opposes private ownership of assault weapons.

The Academy strongly supports legislation restricting unsupervised access to both firearms and ammunition by children under 18 years of age.

The Academy supports efforts to evaluate the effectiveness of regulations, interventions, and strategies for preventing injuries and fatalities caused by firearms. (1995) (2011 COD)




American College of Emergency Physicians
The American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) deplores the improper use of firearms resulting in death and injury. The College supports legislative and public health efforts to prevent firearm-related injuries and deaths.


ACEP endorses efforts to:

•Aggressively enforce current laws against illegal possession, purchase, sale, or use of firearms;
•Ensure that new firearms are rendered as safe as possible through regulation similar to that used for other consumer products;
•Decrease the threat to public safety that results from the widespread availability of assault weapons and high capacity ammunition feeding devices including a ban on the sale of assault weapons and high capacity magazines;•Limit the availability of firearms to those whose ability to responsibly handle a weapon is assured;
•Encourage the creation and evaluation of community and school-based education programs targeting the prevention of firearm injuries;
•Educate the public about the risks of improperly stored firearms, especially in the home;
•Increase funding for the development, evaluation and implementation of evidence based programs and policies to reduce firearm related injury and death;
•Hold individuals legally accountable for harm resulting from unauthorized use of firearms; and
•Work with stakeholders to develop comprehensive strategies to prevent firearm injury and death.



American Psychiatric Association
The American Psychological Association expressed strong support for key components of President Obama’s plan to protect American children and communities by reducing gun violence. APA singled out for praise the president’s specific proposals to:
  • increase access to mental health services;
  • identify and refer youth and young adults in need of mental health treatment;
  • train more psychologists and other mental health professionals;
  • end the freeze on gun violence research;
  • require criminal background checks for all gun sales; and
  • ensure that health insurance plans offer mental health benefits at parity.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby crbutler on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:29 am

Yep, and note that most if not all of these were positions taken by the leadership of the academies, not a resolution voted on by the membership.

I'm not trying to state that a majority of physicians in these orgs are not "progressive"- they are. Most docs are not active members of the various academies because they feel that they charge way too much money and do too many things unrelated to the practice of medicine. The academy is after me for almost $1000 for my annual dues. They state up front that 37% is spent on political lobbying in MN.

Position statements on firearms and the specific types of firearms is purely a political move.

As a physician, I view it as a very bad move that compromises us by taking a side in an issue where we do not have any special skill in the underlying area. Frankly, with the broad brush they are using, can you name any activity that is not in the "purview of organized medicine" through their loose interpretation of "public health?"
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Re: None of thier business

Postby NMRMN on Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:36 am

Keep in mind, under the Affordable Care Act (Thanks NRA!):

No individual shall be required to disclose any information under any data collection activity authorized under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act relating to--

(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; or

(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm or ammunition.

read more: http://www.boston.com/whitecoatnotes/20 ... story.html
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Re: None of thier business

Postby Hmac on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:47 am

crbutler wrote:Yep, and note that most if not all of these were positions taken by the leadership of the academies, not a resolution voted on by the membership.

I'm not trying to state that a majority of physicians in these orgs are not "progressive"- they are. Most docs are not active members of the various academies because they feel that they charge way too much money and do too many things unrelated to the practice of medicine. The academy is after me for almost $1000 for my annual dues. They state up front that 37% is spent on political lobbying in MN.

Position statements on firearms and the specific types of firearms is purely a political move.

As a physician, I view it as a very bad move that compromises us by taking a side in an issue where we do not have any special skill in the underlying area. Frankly, with the broad brush they are using, can you name any activity that is not in the "purview of organized medicine" through their loose interpretation of "public health?"



Yes. Those are indeed votes of the leadership, not actual members, so we can be sure that the statements are purely political. I never had any input into the statement by the American College of Surgeons. Nobody ever asked me or any surgeon I know how they feel. Furthermore, there is no active campaign to bring individual surgeons over to the cause nor have I ever heard any exhortation from the ACS at any of their annual meetings to try to stir surgeons to any particular practice concept. I can't speak to any of the other organizations. I believe, however, that the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends a more proactive role by pediatricians in identifying social health risks for their patients.

I also agree that the membership in these organizations may, in some cases, only represent a fraction of physicians. The American Medical Association, for example, represents about 15% of practicing doctors. The vast majority of them don't have or want anything to do with the AMA. I always irks me that the AMA's opinion is sought and trumpeted by politicians in bolstering any given silly legislation they might propose. The general public tends to think of the AMA as some all-powerful organization that represents a unified voice of US doctors. Ain't true.

Not dissimilar to the way they use the anti-gun positions of the American Association of Chiefs of Police to claim that law enforcement is in favor of gun control. We know that's not true either. http://www.policeone.com/news/6188462-P ... e-Summary/
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Re: None of thier business

Postby SharpRule on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:45 am

Any other school districts having kindergarten teachers doing home visits? I opposed it last year but the wife let one be scheduled and let her in. :evil:
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None of thier business

Postby imc2cavu on Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:01 pm

I know I'm late to the party, but my kids school district did those. My girlfriends kid was starting kindergarten and told me about the scheduled visit. I told her to cancel it or just meet her outside. She thought I was being a little paranoid and thought it was a nice gesture on the teachers part. I told her I thought it was not initiated by the teacher but by the district as a way to record living conditions. What Susie or Johnny wouldn't want to show Mrs. Throcknorton their bedroom while the teacher makes mental notes all along the way. No good in my eyes.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby connsolo on Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:44 pm

Offensive? Intrusive? None of their business? Sure. But anyone who has a kid in public school knows that there are a ton of moron mouth breathing parents out there who smoke around their kids, leave the booze cabinet open, or keep a pistol under the pillow where the kid can get it. It happens. Those morons need a reminder not to do that. Im not talking about your or I. I'm talking about all those millions of dipsh*ts out there you don't associate with who have kids. Kids who go to school with your kid and might think it's cool to bring the 22 under the sofa cushion to school. Yes it is revolting that a parent would leave a gun within reach of a kid. They're horrible people who should be sterilized. But since we can't kick them all in the nutz until they get it, school will ask. They need someone to help pay their rent, they need someone to help feed and clothe them, and they need someone to tell them to keep their heater locked up. Just the times we live in.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby MaryB on Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:41 pm

Black sharpie and questions get blacked out. Exactly what I did on my last physical when they handed me that form. My doc laughed and said most people cross them off or write in none of your F***ing business. After the physical we decided to head to the range, I was his last patient and we are both members of the local gun club.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby Randygmn on Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:32 pm

This is back door, government, non specific de facto registration, eerily reminiscent of Nazi Germany.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby gdubya on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:40 am

Yet another reason to be glad we homeschool, at least for now...

Seriously though, as an IT guy my first question would be about data retention and security for those answers. If you answer no firearms, a third party knows you are vulnerable. If you answer yes, they know you have something valuable worth stealing that is easily traded for cash.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby linksep on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:28 pm

gdubya wrote:Yet another reason to be glad we homeschool, at least for now...

Seriously though, as an IT guy my first question would be about data retention and security for those answers. If you answer no firearms, a third party knows thinks you are vulnerable. If you answer yes, they know you have something valuable worth stealing that is easily traded for cash put you on the list of known terrorists.

Fixed.

Hasn't anyone taken their PTC class or renewal lately? "It's only illegal to lie if you're lying to a cop."

School or Doctor's office asks if you have ANY guns in the house the answer is no. ANY other response=YES.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby LarryP on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:36 pm

In reality, By doing that you're still telling them you're a gun owner/supporter.




MaryB wrote:Black sharpie and questions get blacked out. Exactly what I did on my last physical when they handed me that form. My doc laughed and said most people cross them off or write in none of your F***ing business. After the physical we decided to head to the range, I was his last patient and we are both members of the local gun club.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby steve4102 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:00 am

When I go to the DR. and they give me a form to fill out, any form, I give my name and address, date and sign. Everything else is left blank.

It's mostly medical history and such, but there are inappropriate questions as well. When asked why I did not fill it out, I simply say, "You already have all that information and my medical history is in your Computer". "Look it up if need be".
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Re: None of thier business

Postby Chunkychuck on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:23 am

About a year ago I missed my respirator physical at work and thus had to go to a local clinic to take the test. When I showed up they had me sign releases related to the test and then handed me a form to fill out with the approximate instructions, "We don't really need this today but it's in case you return you won't have to fill it out then." I told the lady since she didn't need it today I would fill it out when I returned. That didn't go over too well. She protested but I asked her, Did you tell me you didn't need it today. She said yes but it is for the future as well. I told her since this wasn't my doctor's office, I would fill it out if I returned in the future. She didn't press any more but it was very apparent that she was upset because I didn't fall in lock step.
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Re: None of thier business

Postby yukonjasper on Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:38 pm

connsolo wrote:Offensive? Intrusive? None of their business? Sure. But anyone who has a kid in public school knows that there are a ton of moron mouth breathing parents out there who smoke around their kids, leave the booze cabinet open, or keep a pistol under the pillow where the kid can get it. It happens. Those morons need a reminder not to do that. Im not talking about your or I. I'm talking about all those millions of dipsh*ts out there you don't associate with who have kids. Kids who go to school with your kid and might think it's cool to bring the 22 under the sofa cushion to school. Yes it is revolting that a parent would leave a gun within reach of a kid. They're horrible people who should be sterilized. But since we can't kick them all in the nutz until they get it, school will ask. They need someone to help pay their rent, they need someone to help feed and clothe them, and they need someone to tell them to keep their heater locked up. Just the times we live in.



There is no need to add the "but". In my opinion, the government, through whichever branch, arm, department or method cannot fix the bad brained people who are undoubtedly populating this country and procreating. Are there idiots who make the mistakes you point out above -YES - is it governments job to shepard all the idiots so they don't hurt themselves or create and environment that might - "might" harm thier children - HELL NO. I'm tired of the notion that "if we can save just one life, its worth it" - because it isn't worth it. Accidents happen and people do stupid things - highly regrettable when that spills over to children, but not much you can do about it without assigning a government worker to each household to make sure the kids are being raised "appropriately" - whatever that means. I don't want to pay for that "parental" supervision - but I am - I don't want anymore costs to save the idiots added to my tab. You can't fix stupid and you also can't shelter individually from the hazzards of life.
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