New resident with a few questions

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Re:

Postby cobb on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:52 pm

tletourneau wrote:Public sidewalks are not school property anymore than the sidewalk in front of a home is the property of the home owner. It is a public thoroughfare and as such has the same regulations as a public road as far as carry is concerned (excluding gated communities). Any form of legal carry by a MN permit holder is as legal on a public sidewalk as it is in any other public space that does not have a specific exclusion.

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And for a Minnesota permit holder, they are exempt from 18 USC § 922 (q)(2) which deals with gun free zones.
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New resident with a few questions

Postby jshuberg on Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:37 pm

I own the sidewalk in front of my house, and the boulevard out to the street. The sidewalk *is* considered a public right of way, but I actually own it and am required to maintain it. I had to replace a large section of it a couple years ago, and had to pay for it. It is in fact my property, located on land that I own, but it is also a public right of way. It may be different in other cities, but in Minneapolis the "public" sidewalks are in fact all privately owned.

Take a close look at 609.66 subd. 1d. You'll note that it repeatedly refers to school property, and defines school property as school buildings and improved grounds (among others). You'll note that there is no exception to school property which is also a right of way. It's quite possible that the courts could determine that a public right of way is exempt despite it being school property, but they could also potentially determine that school property as defined does not provide an exception for a public right of way, and that the legislature had the opportunity to codify that exception in the statute, but didn't.

I'm sure different lawyers will have different opinions, but until a determination is made by the court, any opinion is nothing more than conjecture. Even a lawyers opinion. Can a child molester who is ordered to stay off of school property legally walk on a sidewalk that is owned by a school on school grounds? It's basically a question as to whether a particular prohibition trumps a right of way or not. My understanding is that this is a question that has yet to be addressed, so there is simply no concrete answer at this point.

Should a permit holder be arrested carrying a firearm on a sidewalk owned by a school, he *may* find himself guilty of a misdemeanor in doing so. Be smart, don't be a test case.
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Postby tletourneau on Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:35 pm

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with the assessment.

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Re: Re: New resident with a few questions

Postby Mauser98 on Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:21 am

jshuberg wrote:I own the sidewalk in front of my house, and the boulevard out to the street. The sidewalk *is* considered a public right of way, but I actually own it and am required to maintain it. I had to replace a large section of it a couple years ago, and had to pay for it. It is in fact my property, located on land that I own, but it is also a public right of way. It may be different in other cities, but in Minneapolis the "public" sidewalks are in fact all privately owned.


IANAL, but an LSIT (Land Surveyor in Training) and testing for licensure next month, I find your statement far from the norm. There are various types of right-of-way, and with some of them, the adjacent land owner does own the land underneath the ROW.

That being said, most of MPLS has been divided into subdivision plats. These plats dedicate ROW to the public, which the city, county or state will maintain and improve. The adjacent owners do not own this ROW, although there is more to this which is beyond the scope here.

Most ROW's in MPLS are of sufficient width to accommodate the roadway, Boulevard and sidewalk. I'm not saying that your property isn't as you say, just that IME surveying, your case is very much the rarity, but I have seen it. (I've never heard of having to pay for replacement of the sidewalk on their own dollar though, shovel and sweep is common ordinance though.)

The underlying owner basically has no control what so ever for areas covered by ROW. They can't control the speed limit, traffic control apparatuses, build on it, alter any designed drainage, etc. They also shouldn't be assessed taxes on that portion, as like above, they can't have any meaningful use of that portion covered. Since one can not control that portion, I don't see how the area could be considered a restricted area. The thing to watch out for though, is if the school has roadside pick up/drop off with a widened roadway for bus parking, the sidewalk may veer off the ROW onto the school property. I've seen this a number of times.

ROW's, whether owned by the adjacent owner or not, are PUBLIC. Anything legal you can do in any other public place, should be legal there as well.

Here's a senario to ponder. We did a survey for a school expansion years back. The school bought out the whole block across the street, and the city vacated the ROW between them. This put the ROW into school ownership. The funding was slow, so the project sat for 2 years. In that time the street and sidewalks were still in place and very much being used by everyone. That "street" was not public anymore, and was school property. Only the school, our company, the city and any residents that were at the council meeting knew that the street wasn't public anymore. So would an average person carrying down the sidewalk be in violation? By the letter of the law, probably. I think the "knowingly" portion of 609.66 is the key to most of this.

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New resident with a few questions

Postby jshuberg on Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:18 am

Interesting. Although I don't think it makes any difference. The only one that can decide the school grounds vs right of way question is a judge. We can all sit back and hypothesize and make educated guesses, but they are only guesses. And guessing as to whether a particular behavior constitutes a crime is risky.

What I can tell you however is that I do in fact own the property all the way out to the street. Every so often (10 years) the city inspects the sidewalk in front of my house, and if it is cracked, or one section elevated from frost heave or tree roots, etc. I will be sent a letter with the city ordinance requiring me to pay to have *my* sidewalk repaired. If I fail to do it by a certain deadline, the city will hire a contractor to do it, and the costs will be added to my property taxes, along with a fine.

This may not be the case in other cities. Either way, a public right of way isn't explicitly addressed concerning 609.66, and so the ambiguity can only be decided by a judge, and it's simply impossible to know how a judge will interpret the facts. We can make an educated guess, but it will still only be a guess.

In my mind this isn't the real issue concerning school grounds. The very premise that somehow it is necessarily dangerous to children for a trained, law-abiding adult to be carrying a firearm near them is flawed. The anti-gun cultists, and many in the legislature, and even many in the judiciary accept this statement entirely on faith and without any evidence to support it. The fact that children manage to attend hunter safety classes without a mass casualty incident (or any incident at all) occurring is in fact evidence that this presumption is false.

If the underlying belief resulting in schools being designated a prohibited location are false, it would stand to reason that it doesn't need to be prohibited in the first place, and that the law should be changed in favor of liberty.

Until then, my recommendation is to avoid carrying a firearm on school property, including a "public" sidewalk that crosses school property to avoid the possibility of committing a crime.
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Re: New resident with a few questions

Postby SuperHerb on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:26 pm

Totally not on topic.....but in Mpls you as the property owner adjacent to the public right of way are responsible wholly for the cost of repairing the public sidewalk in the public right of way abutting your property.  It's a very different ordinance from any other city I know of.  You definitely do not own the sidewalk in the right of way paralleling  the street, you just get to pay for it, nor do you likely own the property right up to the street (there could be an easement I suppose, but very unlikely)  It's very typical that you own somewhere close to the edge of the sidewalk closest to your house then the public ROW starts....and then there is the public sidewalk that Mpls makes you pay for repairs for and the public boulevard you are required to maintain and mow.

Said as an Asst. City Engr. for another metro city and as a 16 yr resident of Mpls who's paid for the City sidewalk repairs and has read the ordinance due to outrage over living on a corner lot and really paying a bunch for repair of public sidewalk.

Again, off topic, but just be aware the boundary of public property versus private property is not what some may expect.
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Re: New resident with a few questions

Postby MWAG on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:54 pm

jshuberg wrote:
Take a close look at 609.66 subd. 1d. You'll note that it repeatedly refers to school property, and defines school property as school buildings and improved grounds (among others). You'll note that there is no exception to school property which is also a right of way. It's quite possible that the courts could determine that a public right of way is exempt despite it being school property, but they could also potentially determine that school property as defined does not provide an exception for a public right of way, and that the legislature had the opportunity to codify that exception in the statute, but didn't.

I'm sure different lawyers will have different opinions, but until a determination is made by the court, any opinion is nothing more than conjecture. Even a lawyers opinion. Can a child molester who is ordered to stay off of school property legally walk on a sidewalk that is owned by a school on school grounds? It's basically a question as to whether a particular prohibition trumps a right of way or not. My understanding is that this is a question that has yet to be addressed, so there is simply no concrete answer at this point.

Should a permit holder be arrested carrying a firearm on a sidewalk owned by a school, he *may* find himself guilty of a misdemeanor in doing so. Be smart, don't be a test case.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, or Determined A-Hole; couldn't one argue that since the school is publically funded, one should have the same legal rights granted to them that normal public property would? :twisted:

Granted, there's a big difference between John Q. Public with his PTC walking his kid to school in the morning and Chester the Molester with his trenchcoat and socks. I would think that unless Chester was loitering, both would have the same rights to that sidewalk, regardless if it is within school grounds.
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