ATF to reclassify / ban M855 ammo next month?

[photogpat]

Well, we know the ATF has redefined the word "designed" as it applies to the SIG Brace (how you use something can alter it's original design/intent in their world)... and since the M855 ammunition has been used in AR pistols chambered in 5.56 NATO I assume, in their mind, the "design" of the cartridge has therefore been altered allowing them to apply the armor piercing "handgun ammunition" classification, however incorrectly...

They need to establish a few technical characteristics in order for this whole thing to fly which is why they called out AR pistols in 5.56 NATO, because it lets them make the jump into calling M855 "handgun ammunition" which in turn lets them leverage the previously flawed designation of M855 as armor piercing ammunition even though it clearly doesn't meet the stink test in 18 USC 921.

The whole thing stinks to high hell, the problem is who watches the watchers in this case - the DOJ/Attorney General's office which still hasn't come clean on the previous half dozen scandals... I think the greater threat to traditional lead jacketed in copper ammunition will come from another out of control enforcement agency, the EPA.

We're in agreement!

[Holland&Holland]

Well, we know the ATF has redefined the word "designed" as it applies to the SIG Brace (how you use something can alter it's original design/intent in their world)... and since the M855 ammunition has been used in AR pistols chambered in 5.56 NATO I assume, in their mind, the "design" of the cartridge has therefore been altered allowing them to apply the armor piercing "handgun ammunition" classification, however incorrectly...

They need to establish a few technical characteristics in order for this whole thing to fly which is why they called out AR pistols in 5.56 NATO, because it lets them make the jump into calling M855 "handgun ammunition" which in turn lets them leverage the previously flawed designation of M855 as armor piercing ammunition even though it clearly doesn't meet the stink test in 18 USC 921.

The whole thing stinks to high hell, the problem is who watches the watchers in this case - the DOJ/Attorney General's office which still hasn't come clean on the previous half dozen scandals... I think the greater threat to traditional lead jacketed in copper ammunition will come from another out of control enforcement agency, the EPA.

We're in agreement!

Couldn't 2 play this game then? As long as the box states for use in rifles only? We should be good right?

[yuppiejr]

... not if someone can alter it's design/classification per the ATF by simply using it in a way that differs from it's original designation, much like what happened with the Sig Brace.

[photogpat]

... not if someone can alter it's design/classification per the ATF by simply using it in a way that differs from it's original designation, much like what happened with the Sig Brace.

Bingo - they're setting policy from the executive office instead of through Congress like it should be.

[samginko]

I see that 420rd can of green tips are for sale on armslist for $320. None of you guys speculating here put that up for sale right?

In reality who really needs green tips? Most of us who reload buy 55grain tips. We buy green tips for value. Any of us shooting targets clad in flak vest?

Really the discussion should be about the morality among the gun owners. 10 years ago most gun owners I ran into were generous and did everything to embrace new shooters. Now, let's rape the FNG before he wises up. What the hells happening here? When I first got into cowboy shooting DM Yankee put a rifle into my hand and told me to take it home for a work out. Smokey gave me a box of ammo for free. These guys haven't changed, but I am certain Smokey probably thinks this new guy will take that box of ammo and sell it for profit.

Yes, I believe in free market. Are we willing to use that as an excuse for ******* behavior?

[Ghost]

I see that 420rd can of green tips are for sale on armslist for $320. None of you guys speculating here put that up for sale right?

In reality who really needs green tips? Most of us who reload buy 55grain tips. We buy green tips for value. Any of us shooting targets clad in flak vest?

Not I, I'll likely just store mine for the future. I've never shot M855 so I figured I should get a couple cases so I had the opportunity and I got in before the prices went up.

And with regard to the comment on flak vests

M193 and M855 at anything greater than 2200 fps will generally defeat all body armor up to and including Type IIIA. How much damage those rounds will do AFTER penetration is guesswork. In shorter barrels (14.5" and below) that damage is likely to be limited and wound profiles in such instances will resemble .22LR hits. With higher velocities it's still hard to imagine explosive fragmentation at anything but point blank range but M193 and M855 will certainly defeat all soft ar

[yuppiejr]

I don't own any M855, nor am I participating in the current panic/bubble, but if I did have a can or two and someone offered me twice what I paid I'd gladly take the money. There is plenty of ammo out there in .223/5.56 NATO including M193 spec (Independence/IMI and Federal are both in stock at PSA right now at 31-32 cents a round) which is just as suitable as the M855 for range practice. I can see people who have already sighted-in and stocked up on M855 grabbing up what they can at first source prices, but I don't think there's going to be nearly as robust a secondary market as there was for .22 LR or all forms of .223/5.56 NATO ammo in 2011-2013.

I do hope this scare (vs the previous full on panic) will get a few people more interested in how this situation came about via the ATF's over-reach and why it's different and more significant than the speculative panic that occurred last time. Now is a great time to get involved in supporting your local and national gun rights organizations who are on the front lines battling this sort of executive branch abuse.

My ignorance was frequently taken advantage of in dealings with more than one "grizzled gun guy" when I first started in the hobby 15 years ago.... while I was also the beneficiary of great generosity from others. I think gun ownership is more widespread than it was then, and modern owners/hobbyists have better access to product information, reviews and the ability to buy-sell products directly online instead of being limited to what the LGS has in stock at the price they chose. I don't think gun owners as a whole are significantly better or worse as a community than they were a decade ago, just different... and more organized thanks to various internet forums and a larger number of specialized clubs/events/interest groups.

[photogpat]

So heres a good question -- the ATF's beef with the 855 is that it puts law enforcement in danger when shot out of an AR pistol.

Ballistics by the inch is showing that .223 out of a 7" barrel is traveling somewhere in the vicinity of 2100-2200 fps. Be interesting for someone to see if the energy was still sufficient to defeat Lvl IIIa armor.

I know that even at full speed out of a rifle it cannot defeat Lvl III plates....but will defeat Lvl IIIa soft.

[s4oak]

I know that even at full speed out of a rifle it cannot defeat Lvl III plates....but will defeat Lvl IIIa soft.

It will defeat some III plates, just not AR500 plates. Just like M193 will defeat some III plates like AR500. A level III rating does not guarantee a plate will stop M855 or M193, just 7.62 NATO. It can be a challenge to find a reasonably priced plate that stops both M855 and M193.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php ... Armor-Test

[jshuberg]

Definitions of "armor piercing": 18 USC 921 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921)

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) ... may be used in a handgun ...
or
(ii) ... designed and intended for use in a handgun ...

They are taking advantage of poor wording in the statute. (i) reads to be anything capable of being used in a handgun, (ii) reads that is must have been designed for use in a handgun. BATFE is basing the change in classification on (i), not (ii).

However, just because the wording gives the impression that anything capable of being used in a handgun is what the legislature meant, the discussions and debates reveal the opposite. The legislature never discussed rifle calibers, or the possibility of a pistol being chambered in a rifle caliber. Everything that was discussed was calibers that were intended and designed to be used in a handgun. There are 4 ways that this ruling is vulnerable:

1) Despite some poor wording, the intent of the legislature was obvious. This was intended to effect handgun calibers only.
2) The legislature at the time couldn't anticipate the trend of handguns being made from rifle receivers. These didn't exist and weren't contemplated. The definition of handgun for them was a proper, traditional handgun.
3) The core of M855 isn't entirely made of steel, only about half of it is. Although it is often referred to as "steel core" a more correct description is "steel tip".
4) While technically a .223, M855 when rounded to the nearest hundredth (the precision specified in the law), it is a .22 bullet. Had the legislature wanted to consider bullet diameters to the thousandth they should have indicated ".220".

What worries me is the timing of this. Right when the state legislatures are spinning up their sessions after the mass firing of gun control nuts. This might be a distraction to occupy the time and resources of gun rights groups. Lets keep a very close eye on what else might pop up in the next month while this is under consideration.

[photogpat]

Definitions of "armor piercing": 18 USC 921 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921)

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) ... may be used in a handgun ...
or
(ii) ... designed and intended for use in a handgun ...

They are taking advantage of poor wording in the statute. (i) reads to be anything capable of being used in a handgun, (ii) reads that is must have been designed for use in a handgun. BATFE is basing the change in classification on (i), not (ii).

However, just because the wording gives the impression that anything capable of being used in a handgun is what the legislature meant, the discussions and debates reveal the opposite. The legislature never discussed rifle calibers, or the possibility of a pistol being chambered in a rifle caliber. Everything that was discussed was calibers that were intended and designed to be used in a handgun. There are 4 ways that this ruling is vulnerable:

1) Despite some poor wording, the intent of the legislature was obvious. This was intended to effect handgun calibers only.
2) The legislature at the time couldn't anticipate the trend of handguns being made from rifle receivers. These didn't exist and weren't contemplated. The definition of handgun for them was a proper, traditional handgun.
3) The core of M855 isn't entirely made of steel, only about half of it is. Although it is often referred to as "steel core" a more correct description is "steel tip".
4) While technically a .223, M855 when rounded to the nearest hundredth (the precision specified in the law), it is a .22 bullet. Had the legislature wanted to consider bullet diameters to the thousandth they should have indicated ".220".

What worries me is the timing of this. Right when the state legislatures are spinning up their sessions after the mass firing of gun control nuts. This might be a distraction to occupy the time and resources of gun rights groups. Lets keep a very close eye on what else might pop up in the next month while this is under consideration.

Just so everyone knows what the internal structure of the M855 looks like (steel portion is on top):

[jshuberg]

While the most obvious way to fight this would be the fact that the core isn't entirely steel. However, I hope that's not the primary argument.

They are trying to ban lead bullets. Then they are trying to ban non-lead bullets larger than .22that can be chambered in a handgun. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the end goal here.

The industry shouldn't argue the easy win with the core vs tip argument, since that argument would only effect M855 specifically. We should instead focus on the intent of the legislature, and that the handgun made out of rifle components wasn't contemplated. That argument, while more difficult and costly to make is a better argument because it kills their actual goal, of banning anything except pure lead bullets, while simultaneously also banning lead bullets.

In other words, we need to play the hard chess game rather than the easy checkers game here.

[photogpat]

While the most obvious way to fight this would be the fact that the core isn't entirely steel. However, I hope that's not the primary argument.

They are trying to ban lead bullets. Then they are trying to ban non-lead bullets larger than .22that can be chambered in a handgun. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the end goal here.

The industry shouldn't argue the easy win with the core vs tip argument, since that argument would only effect M855 specifically. We should instead focus on the intent of the legislature, and that the handgun made out of rifle components wasn't contemplated. That argument, while more difficult and costly to make is a better argument because it kills their actual goal, of banning anything except pure lead bullets, while simultaneously also banning lead bullets.

In other words, we need to play the hard chess game rather than the easy checkers game here.

Smart money is on ATF claiming that the M855 is composed of not one, but TWO cores....one of which is entirely composed of a prohibited material (steel).

Now excuse me while I go eat a cookie -- one that is entirely composed of flour, entirely composed of sugar, entirely composed of butter, entirely composed of eggs and entirely composed of chocolate chips -- no mixing!

[photogpat]

While the most obvious way to fight this would be the fact that the core isn't entirely steel. However, I hope that's not the primary argument.

They are trying to ban lead bullets. Then they are trying to ban non-lead bullets larger than .22that can be chambered in a handgun. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the end goal here.

The industry shouldn't argue the easy win with the core vs tip argument, since that argument would only effect M855 specifically. We should instead focus on the intent of the legislature, and that the handgun made out of rifle components wasn't contemplated. That argument, while more difficult and costly to make is a better argument because it kills their actual goal, of banning anything except pure lead bullets, while simultaneously also banning lead bullets.

In other words, we need to play the hard chess game rather than the easy checkers game here.

The other issue is that we get it opened back up - and they make it illegal to fire ammunition intended to be fired from a rifle out of a handgun....ie. "Did you INTEND to fire that rifle cartridge out of your handgun specifically to pierce the soft body armor worn by the police?"

[jshuberg]

How about they just make it illegal to shoot armor piercing ammo at police?

One would think that would be the best way to solve this problem....