Comp Etiquette at indoor ranges.

[Ghost]

My 1911 bias came from some random guy who let me shoot one of his guns.

Similar here and now my 1911's go to the range to show off with suppressors.

[crbutler]

HMAC you are welcome to disagree, but perhaps you should give me/us a detailed point that my opinion is a problem? Or as you said, unprintable.

Thank you. Yes, I do disagree.

Shooting a SBR with comp is showing off at an indoor range, it's saying look at me and my unusual gun. Any NFA item is at a public indoor range. What functional goal are you getting doing that in a public setting? A suppressor is kind of saying the same, at least until they become common, but at least you are not disturbing others.

Disagree

I guess this is just a matter of opinion.

[/quote]

The .223 is not a sub 100 yard rifle, nor is the AR platform a short distance item. I have shot enough 3-400 yard prairie dogs to know better. It's been a while, but the M16 I was issued was zeroed at 200 yards according to the sights... Maybe police doctrine and training is that way, and I will admit 3 gun shooting is often done at short distance, but that is not because the rifle was designed for that, and frankly if you can hit a target at 100, it's easy to hit one at 10.

Disagree.
[/quote]

Really?
Can you document where a AR is a short range weapon? For crying out loud, our standard arm for infantry is the M4, which is a SBR by definition. The troops over there in Afghanistan are using it out to 600 yards....

I suppose you have not looked at an M16A2? Read the US Army training manual on it? Heck, guys like Erud use them out to 600 all the time.

Just because the training classes you took were on short range use doesn't mean that it is incapable of longer range.

Sorry, this one is factual.
[/quote]

I am still saying shooting indoors at short distances with a comped centerfire rifle around other people is boorish behavior. Some uncomped guns are horrible too, such as SBRs and true magnum rifles. You can get plenty of trigger time with rimfire rifles and standard pistols without making everyone else uncomfortable. For the true case where you have no other gun, it would be forgivable, but frankly I don't know anyone who has only one gun and that is a comped AR, even those who have boating accidents regularly.

Utterly disagree.

[/quote]

And why do they sell training rifles in AR format that are .22 RF? Or are you trying to say you only have your 11.5 SBR? Or are you saying your "need" to shoot your SBR overwhelms the other folks around you?

Or are you saying that they don't make more noise?

[/quote]

I do know that battle sight zero on the M16 is 0-200. The ammo specs are such that out of an M4 (which is a SBR by definition) it should be both accurate and lethal past 400 yards.

Disagree. The AR15 is a CQB weapon, especially an SBR. 100 yards and in. The challenge is accurately shooting from the shoulder off hand and presenting from low-ready. Acceptable at any range where I've ever shot.
[/quote]


And I disagree with that. The challenge would be snap shooting at 100 yards plus, and presenting from low ready is hardly difficult (that's why it's called "ready.")

Secondly, the AR is a rifle, not a CQB weapon only. As above, our standard service arm is the M4. While a SBR is better for CQB than a standard rifle, it is still a rifle and still capable of hitting and killing beyond 100 yards.

I may not have your depth of training, but CQB is a tactic, not an equipment issue. You give Larry Vickers a bolt action rifle and give me a SMG and he will still clean my clock. Yes, some weapons are better for CQB, but if you can't hit a playing card at 100 yards with your SBR, then you have been had.

[/quote]

As to my point about NFA weapons, it's essentially that an indoor range is generally a gathering of general public shooters. Most recognize that an SBR, MG, or suppressor are not allowed in general ownership, and in fact most folks when seeing some of my stuff have said "that's illegal" to the point I had the sheriff called on me when I was shooting on private land. Shure, most go "that's cool" and ask to try them, but do we really need to show off our toys in public? I cannot really see a point to it except to show off unless it is a suppressor, but even then most folks take those out in public to show off, and at an indoor range, it sure isn't to allow you to shoot without hearing protection...

More disagree.

[/quote]

The first part is opinion, but I have been talked to by the sheriff when using FA on my own property. That discussion was interesting.

[/quote]

IOW, I found your opinion to be supercilious, condescending, and self-righteous. Apparently, my opinion of your opinion is not printable[/quote]

I see. Your response was that my opinion was a bunch of stars. (***)

Honestly, I was trying to be polite. The folks that have NFA items are less than 1% of gun owners. Really, a very elite group.

I found your one word responses to be exactly what you are saying I was being.

I really have no problem with folks using AR's for self defense, no issues with shooting them on a rifle range, no issues with hunting with them, no issues with shooting sports using them. I have no issues with folks having NFA items, and wish we could get non C&R in this state. I just don't think using a firearm that was made for specific purposes as a general use target swatter in public is the most reasonable thing to do, especially if it will disrupt others around you. Someone made a comment about mall ninjas at Bill's. What do you think tactical Timmy dressed up in Molle gear with a 2 point sling and a SBR AR looks like to the norm?

There is a time and a place for things, and open range time at a indoor range isn't it in my opinion. So far you have not changed my mind at all.

And if one continually annoys folks around them they usually have consequences eventually.

[Ghost]

It's even more exciting to pull out my 460 at BPR. Only allowed in the rifle bay and last time I was there the concussion reset the target machines after every shot. Not to mention stuff falling out of the ceiling on you.

[OldmanFCSA]

Bill's in CP or Hudson don't like my 50's which require a muzzle brake.
I use a blast board now while shooting off the bench which redirects the gas pulse wave completely sideways to shooters, many of which who have shot beside me have thanked me for the use of the blast board.

Oakdale lets me shoot at all ranges, but setting up to do chrono testing on the 25 yard line raised eyes a bit.

I have shot BP revolver at indoor ranges and normal revolvers loads at indoor ranges. A single trip to an indoor range that allowed kids doing mag dumps or showing off their "gangsta" moves cured me. I will shoot at home unless its a highly organized shoot.

[Holland&Holland]

HMAC you are welcome to disagree, but perhaps you should give me/us a detailed point that my opinion is a problem? Or as you said, unprintable.

Thank you. Yes, I do disagree.

Shooting a SBR with comp is showing off at an indoor range, it's saying look at me and my unusual gun. Any NFA item is at a public indoor range. What functional goal are you getting doing that in a public setting? A suppressor is kind of saying the same, at least until they become common, but at least you are not disturbing others.

Disagree

I guess this is just a matter of opinion.

The .223 is not a sub 100 yard rifle, nor is the AR platform a short distance item. I have shot enough 3-400 yard prairie dogs to know better. It's been a while, but the M16 I was issued was zeroed at 200 yards according to the sights... Maybe police doctrine and training is that way, and I will admit 3 gun shooting is often done at short distance, but that is not because the rifle was designed for that, and frankly if you can hit a target at 100, it's easy to hit one at 10.

Disagree.
[/quote]

Really?
Can you document where a AR is a short range weapon? For crying out loud, our standard arm for infantry is the M4, which is a SBR by definition. The troops over there in Afghanistan are using it out to 600 yards....

I suppose you have not looked at an M16A2? Read the US Army training manual on it? Heck, guys like Erud use them out to 600 all the time.

Just because the training classes you took were on short range use doesn't mean that it is incapable of longer range.

Sorry, this one is factual.
[/quote]

I am still saying shooting indoors at short distances with a comped centerfire rifle around other people is boorish behavior. Some uncomped guns are horrible too, such as SBRs and true magnum rifles. You can get plenty of trigger time with rimfire rifles and standard pistols without making everyone else uncomfortable. For the true case where you have no other gun, it would be forgivable, but frankly I don't know anyone who has only one gun and that is a comped AR, even those who have boating accidents regularly.

Utterly disagree.

[/quote]

And why do they sell training rifles in AR format that are .22 RF? Or are you trying to say you only have your 11.5 SBR? Or are you saying your "need" to shoot your SBR overwhelms the other folks around you?

Or are you saying that they don't make more noise?

[/quote]

I do know that battle sight zero on the M16 is 0-200. The ammo specs are such that out of an M4 (which is a SBR by definition) it should be both accurate and lethal past 400 yards.

Disagree. The AR15 is a CQB weapon, especially an SBR. 100 yards and in. The challenge is accurately shooting from the shoulder off hand and presenting from low-ready. Acceptable at any range where I've ever shot.
[/quote]


And I disagree with that. The challenge would be snap shooting at 100 yards plus, and presenting from low ready is hardly difficult (that's why it's called "ready.")

Secondly, the AR is a rifle, not a CQB weapon only. As above, our standard service arm is the M4. While a SBR is better for CQB than a standard rifle, it is still a rifle and still capable of hitting and killing beyond 100 yards.

I may not have your depth of training, but CQB is a tactic, not an equipment issue. You give Larry Vickers a bolt action rifle and give me a SMG and he will still clean my clock. Yes, some weapons are better for CQB, but if you can't hit a playing card at 100 yards with your SBR, then you have been had.

[/quote]

As to my point about NFA weapons, it's essentially that an indoor range is generally a gathering of general public shooters. Most recognize that an SBR, MG, or suppressor are not allowed in general ownership, and in fact most folks when seeing some of my stuff have said "that's illegal" to the point I had the sheriff called on me when I was shooting on private land. Shure, most go "that's cool" and ask to try them, but do we really need to show off our toys in public? I cannot really see a point to it except to show off unless it is a suppressor, but even then most folks take those out in public to show off, and at an indoor range, it sure isn't to allow you to shoot without hearing protection...

More disagree.

[/quote]

The first part is opinion, but I have been talked to by the sheriff when using FA on my own property. That discussion was interesting.

[/quote]

IOW, I found your opinion to be supercilious, condescending, and self-righteous. Apparently, my opinion of your opinion is not printable[/quote]

I see. Your response was that my opinion was a bunch of stars. (***)

Honestly, I was trying to be polite. The folks that have NFA items are less than 1% of gun owners. Really, a very elite group.

I found your one word responses to be exactly what you are saying I was being.

I really have no problem with folks using AR's for self defense, no issues with shooting them on a rifle range, no issues with hunting with them, no issues with shooting sports using them. I have no issues with folks having NFA items, and wish we could get non C&R in this state. I just don't think using a firearm that was made for specific purposes as a general use target swatter in public is the most reasonable thing to do, especially if it will disrupt others around you. Someone made a comment about mall ninjas at Bill's. What do you think tactical Timmy dressed up in Molle gear with a 2 point sling and a SBR AR looks like to the norm?

There is a time and a place for things, and open range time at a indoor range isn't it in my opinion. So far you have not changed my mind at all.

And if one continually annoys folks around them they usually have consequences eventually.[/quote]

How many of these folks at a gun range are going to be able to differentiate between a 16inch M4 looking AR and an SBR? Really I think you are making your own argument against yourself. No one said they were dressing up like tactical Timmy. So your point seems to be if it looks scary to the public leave it at home? Really? It is a gun range.

[yukonjasper]

IMHO - a gun range is for shooting guns, guns go boom, some guns go BOOM and some go BOOM. If your sensitive to noise, you shouldn't go to a gun range - if there are fireballs coming into your lane, that may be different, I haven't experienced that, but you should be able to discharge your weapons at a place that is designed to discharge your weapon. As far as whether you are shooting to impress people or not, your personal motivation for going to the range is not my concern - if its legal, shoot away, I'll figure out how I'll react if it is infringing on my enjoyment - After all, if we all act like adults and are reasonable people, we should be able to come up with a compromise that works for everyone. I supposed I'm naïve, but we shouldn't be eating our own, there are plenty of people who want us divided.

[crbutler]

Essentially, yes.

Indoor range where it will be louder than the norm and folks will be concerned about appearances, yes. And yes, I think that folks can tell the difference between a 11.5" AR and a M4gery. Wouldn't take too many shots to hear the diffence either, with a comp. Especially if you are someone trying to practice CQB technique stuff.

Personally I am fine with live and let live, but if you are trying to shoot together on an indoor range, some folks insistence on using stuff that doesn't quite fit the milieu will disrupt it for others. Would you want to be in there when someone decides to shoot an overbore magnum or .50 BMG? That's about a similar order of magnitude above a comped .223 that a comped .223 is above a standard handgun. The owners will decide what they allow, it's their business and they can decide without my say so.

The point of this thread I thought was what is courteous to your fellow indoor range shooters. In a full indoor range a CF rifle or such is not. Even with a muzzle baffle, the sound echos off the walls. The fact that so many here bring SBR's and such to them (really I have never seen one except at Bills back when they rented them) is in my opinion, showing off, see what a neat toy (or what a hardcore bad ass i am) that worsens the experience for others. If it's a noted time to use one, a dedicated rifle bay, or there is no one else there, I would have no objections to it, but that is pretty far afield there, and really when is the last time you have been at a indoor range without a few people shooting?

[Dutch]

If, at some point I care about what the guy in the next lane is shooting, I'll learn how to play chess.

[Ghost]

Essentially, yes.

Indoor range where it will be louder than the norm and folks will be concerned about appearances, yes. And yes, I think that folks can tell the difference between a 11.5" AR and a M4gery. Wouldn't take too many shots to hear the diffence either, with a comp. Especially if you are someone trying to practice CQB technique stuff.

Personally I am fine with live and let live, but if you are trying to shoot together on an indoor range, some folks insistence on using stuff that doesn't quite fit the milieu will disrupt it for others. Would you want to be in there when someone decides to shoot an overbore magnum or .50 BMG? That's about a similar order of magnitude above a comped .223 that a comped .223 is above a standard handgun. The owners will decide what they allow, it's their business and they can decide without my say so.

The point of this thread I thought was what is courteous to your fellow indoor range shooters. In a full indoor range a CF rifle or such is not. Even with a muzzle baffle, the sound echos off the walls. The fact that so many here bring SBR's and such to them (really I have never seen one except at Bills back when they rented them) is in my opinion, showing off, see what a neat toy (or what a hardcore bad ass i am) that worsens the experience for others. If it's a noted time to use one, a dedicated rifle bay, or there is no one else there, I would have no objections to it, but that is pretty far afield there, and really when is the last time you have been at a indoor range without a few people shooting?

I have had the rifle bay to myself quite often at BPR.

Your demonization of SBR's is both hilarious and appalling.

[Snakeman721]

Being a SRO at Osseo Gun club, I've seen plenty of ARs comped and non-comped. There is a BIG difference shooting a comped AR and a magnum rifle or 460 handgun. The biggest difference is that the comped AR usually blows anything lightweight off the neighboring lane tables like empty ammo boxes, paper targets, etc. They are VERY unsettling and LOUD. Yes, I'm required to wear double hearing protection, but in my opinion, comped ARs are louder and more nasty than magnum rifles or handguns. After I observe the shooter shooting in a safe manner, I usually leave the bay and observe elsewhere. Why should I stick around for the abuse?

[Ghost]

Being a SRO at Osseo Gun club, I've seen plenty of ARs comped and non-comped. There is a BIG difference shooting a comped AR and a magnum rifle or 460 handgun. The biggest difference is that the comped AR usually blows anything lightweight off the neighboring lane tables like empty ammo boxes, paper targets, etc. They are VERY unsettling and LOUD. Yes, I'm required to wear double hearing protection, but in my opinion, comped ARs are louder and more nasty than magnum rifles or handguns. After I observe the shooter shooting in a safe manner, I usually leave the bay and observe elsewhere. Why should I stick around for the abuse?

Interesting as I'm pretty sure my 460 (compensated) is more of a spectacle than any of my SBR's with the muzzle brake suppressor attachments and no suppressor.

I try to only shoot the 460 when I have an empty range even though it is my favorite handgun to shoot.

[Erud]

Man, I love a good internet purse fight!

[Rodentman]

It's even more exciting to pull out my 460 at BPR. Only allowed in the rifle bay and last time I was there the concussion reset the target machines after every shot. Not to mention stuff falling out of the ceiling on you.

I had the same experience. Sparks came out of the target carrier mechanism and the fuse blew. I was rather sure I didn't shoot the mechanism, but it sure rattled me a bit. And that was with reduced recoil loads. And the white rain from the ceiling.... yep

[Jack's My dog]

Man, I love a good internet purse fight!

I think we could really set the forum off with a question about the melting point and tensile strength of comps .

[crbutler]

Essentially, yes.

Indoor range where it will be louder than the norm and folks will be concerned about appearances, yes. And yes, I think that folks can tell the difference between a 11.5" AR and a M4gery. Wouldn't take too many shots to hear the diffence either, with a comp. Especially if you are someone trying to practice CQB technique stuff.

Personally I am fine with live and let live, but if you are trying to shoot together on an indoor range, some folks insistence on using stuff that doesn't quite fit the milieu will disrupt it for others. Would you want to be in there when someone decides to shoot an overbore magnum or .50 BMG? That's about a similar order of magnitude above a comped .223 that a comped .223 is above a standard handgun. The owners will decide what they allow, it's their business and they can decide without my say so.

The point of this thread I thought was what is courteous to your fellow indoor range shooters. In a full indoor range a CF rifle or such is not. Even with a muzzle baffle, the sound echos off the walls. The fact that so many here bring SBR's and such to them (really I have never seen one except at Bills back when they rented them) is in my opinion, showing off, see what a neat toy (or what a hardcore bad ass i am) that worsens the experience for others. If it's a noted time to use one, a dedicated rifle bay, or there is no one else there, I would have no objections to it, but that is pretty far afield there, and really when is the last time you have been at a indoor range without a few people shooting?

I have had the rifle bay to myself quite often at BPR.

Your demonization of SBR's is both hilarious and appalling.

Demonization? Hardly.

I have a couple.

They are substantially louder and more muzzle flash than standard ARs. Add a comp, and its more so. Again, outside, this is much less an issue. My problem is indoors, not AR/SBR. Heck, I said no centerfire rifles inside...hardly AR centric.