The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

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The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Lumpy on Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:50 pm

What gun regulations did he approve of that got him fired? Due to paywalls and extinct links I haven't been able to read the original "Backstop" piece that started it all.
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Lumpy on Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:41 pm

Thanks!

Of course the conundrum is, how do you "regulate" firearms ownership and carry without ultimately telling some number of people (presumably otherwise qualified to not be under civil commitment or guardianship) that they can't have a gun?
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:52 pm

Another gun writer Zumbo’s himself.
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Holland&Holland on Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:54 am

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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Sorcerer on Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:54 pm

My reading comprehension may be off but the article appears to be almost 10 years old.
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby crbutler on Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:22 pm

Yep, and the other part of it was Metcalf owned PASA park (he may still), which was heavily involved in gun training. It struck me as a very self serving position he had.

He was correct in that the state can place restrictions, and the courts decide if they are reasonable.

The question of training in order to exercise a right is interesting. I think most agree that training is a good idea. How much is “reasonable”? How reasonable is it to mandate such an amount of training with strict requirements that makes it impossible for the average man on the street to pass it?

Look at LEO training with weapons. It may be more than the CCW crowd are required to have, but after seeing lots of LEO’s shoot, it certainly isn’t that much more, yet they get a lot more latitude than the rest of us.

His advocacy that was self serving was a problem. How many folks can take 2 solid days of class to just qualify for the permit? He seemed to be saying “you need good training that only folks like me can provide!”

The times I met him I thought he was a thoroughly conceited twit. Every one knows there are restrictions on rights; the real point is what are reasonable ones?
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Lumpy on Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:55 pm

Sorcerer wrote:My reading comprehension may be off but the article appears to be almost 10 years old.
My bad, I was late to the party.

crbutler wrote:The question of training in order to exercise a right is interesting. I think most agree that training is a good idea. How much is “reasonable”? How reasonable is it to mandate such an amount of training with strict requirements that makes it impossible for the average man on the street to pass it?
I sorta' wish there were some way to require gun owners to undergo whatever level of training might be said to be reasonable that did NOT have denial of the right to own and carry as the penalty for failure or non-compliance. In a previous thread I speculated on the possibility of making firearms training a modern version of the militia muster, but no one liked the idea of any requirements whatsoever.

crbutler wrote:Look at LEO training with weapons. It may be more than the CCW crowd are required to have, but after seeing lots of LEO’s shoot, it certainly isn’t that much more, yet they get a lot more latitude than the rest of us.
Other than maybe a "Hogan's Alley" shoot/don't shoot test, I doubt most LEOs train better than CCWs.

crbutler wrote:Every one knows there are restrictions on rights; the real point is what are reasonable ones?
Imagine if to get a driver's license, instead of the DMV's behind the wheel exam you instead had to pay for and pass a for-profit driving instruction class.
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Sorcerer on Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:34 pm

As per the LEO comment I’ve shot at Bills Robinsdale Since they opened. The right side bay was originally law enforcement only. One day it was very busy and they asked if I wouldn’t mind going to the right side. I was possibly the first civilian to shoot on that side. I could not believe how shot up everything was. Walls scared up, floor beat up, the metal “protecting the over head light fixtures all shot up. Shooting position benches with holes in them. I was at a IDPA match at Minnetonka game and fish and there was a squad with all LEO’s. They were a scary bunch. The group was not happy when one of them was DQed.
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby jdege on Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:17 pm

I was shooting at Burnsville, once, practicing slow fire at 25 yards.

I'd loaded my mags alternating snap caps and live rounds. I'd dry fire a few times, then drop the round and fire live.

I'd just hung a clean target and loaded a new mag when two cops took up the lanes on either side of me.

They hung their targets at 7 yards and proceeded to rapid-fire.

I went through two mags, ten snap caps and ten live rounds. In that time the cops must have gone through 200 rounds each.

I retrieved my target and found I'd done better than I'd expected. I'd put 8 rounds in the black and 11 in the white.

I'd picked up 9 rounds from the guys in the next lanes.
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Holland&Holland on Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:54 am

Lumpy wrote:
crbutler wrote:Every one knows there are restrictions on rights; the real point is what are reasonable ones?
Imagine if to get a driver's license, instead of the DMV's behind the wheel exam you instead had to pay for and pass a for-profit driving instruction class.

In Minnesota we in essence have this for youth getting their 1st dl.
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby Holland&Holland on Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:58 am

jdege wrote:I was shooting at Burnsville, once, practicing slow fire at 25 yards.

I'd loaded my mags alternating snap caps and live rounds. I'd dry fire a few times, then drop the round and fire live.

I'd just hung a clean target and loaded a new mag when two cops took up the lanes on either side of me.

They hung their targets at 7 yards and proceeded to rapid-fire.

I went through two mags, ten snap caps and ten live rounds. In that time the cops must have gone through 200 rounds each.

I retrieved my target and found I'd done better than I'd expected. I'd put 8 rounds in the black and 11 in the white.

I'd picked up 9 rounds from the guys in the next lanes.



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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby crbutler on Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:41 am

And these were the guys who were at least willing to practice!

For a while, a few of the metro departments were allowing officers to use paid time to shoot practical shooting matches. I liked meeting these guys. Many were not very good shots, but some were and all who came out regularly got better. Win/win for everyone.

I DQ’d one at USPSA. He was pretty upset, but after I took the time to explain why and the rationale, he took it pretty well. One big point is gun games have rules for lowest common denominator. Gun fights have only one rule.

I’d also admit that police training offers a lot more training on the law than CCW classes do, and to some extent, even more importantly, police training has a lot of time spent on department policies and procedures which has a lot more day to day impact on a LEO than one would like.

face it, if you were in real life most IDPA and almost all USPSA stages the answer would be leave well before a shot buzzer goes off. The situations are set up that even a smidge of situational awareness would have obviated the scenario placed in the stage…

But who wants to shoot matches where it’s draw and engage 1 target. Par time is 0.75 seconds or you are done for the match?
jdege wrote:I was shooting at Burnsville, once, practicing slow fire at 25 yards.

I'd loaded my mags alternating snap caps and live rounds. I'd dry fire a few times, then drop the round and fire live.

I'd just hung a clean target and loaded a new mag when two cops took up the lanes on either side of me.

They hung their targets at 7 yards and proceeded to rapid-fire.

I went through two mags, ten snap caps and ten live rounds. In that time the cops must have gone through 200 rounds each.

I retrieved my target and found I'd done better than I'd expected. I'd put 8 rounds in the black and 11 in the white.

I'd picked up 9 rounds from the guys in the next lanes.
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Re: The firing of Dick Metcalf from Guns & Ammo

Postby crbutler on Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:46 am

What would be interesting is if you have x training, then they are obligated to treat you the way they treat LEO’s involved in a shooting- the immediate send home and set up interview with union rep and lawyers present later so as to not get adrenaline dump statements that get used against you, and the generally made assumption of innocence from the prosecutors until proven otherwise.

But that’s dreaming, isn’t it?

Lumpy wrote:
Sorcerer wrote:My reading comprehension may be off but the article appears to be almost 10 years old.
My bad, I was late to the party.

crbutler wrote:The question of training in order to exercise a right is interesting. I think most agree that training is a good idea. How much is “reasonable”? How reasonable is it to mandate such an amount of training with strict requirements that makes it impossible for the average man on the street to pass it?
I sorta' wish there were some way to require gun owners to undergo whatever level of training might be said to be reasonable that did NOT have denial of the right to own and carry as the penalty for failure or non-compliance. In a previous thread I speculated on the possibility of making firearms training a modern version of the militia muster, but no one liked the idea of any requirements whatsoever.

crbutler wrote:Look at LEO training with weapons. It may be more than the CCW crowd are required to have, but after seeing lots of LEO’s shoot, it certainly isn’t that much more, yet they get a lot more latitude than the rest of us.
Other than maybe a "Hogan's Alley" shoot/don't shoot test, I doubt most LEOs train better than CCWs.

crbutler wrote:Every one knows there are restrictions on rights; the real point is what are reasonable ones?
Imagine if to get a driver's license, instead of the DMV's behind the wheel exam you instead had to pay for and pass a for-profit driving instruction class.
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