Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

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Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby jdege on Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:11 am

I've repeatedly heard that federal law does not require that privately made firearms do not require serial numbers.

But is that correct?

26 U.S. Code § 5842 - Identification of firearms
(a)Identification of firearms other than destructive devices
Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

(b)Firearms without serial number
Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

(c)Identification of destructive device
Any firearm classified as a destructive device shall be identified in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

It's that "anyone making a firearm" that makes me think that would apply to privately made firearms.

Is there other statute law that would restrict the application of this section only to licensed manufacturers? Court precedents? Federal regulations?
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Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby gun_fan111v2 on Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:10 am

Read through this https://gofund.me/32184d77
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:16 am

It's always been my understanding that homemade firearms need a serial number.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby Lumpy on Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:43 am

Someone better than I am at legal hairsplitting will have to chime in, but the letter of the statute would seem to mean that firearms must be serialized. How pre-1968 guns are dealt with I don't know. I feel sorry for the Forgueses but it looks to me like a "gotcha" law got 'em.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby jdege on Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:01 pm

Rip Van Winkle wrote:It's always been my understanding that homemade firearms need a serial number.

I have repeatedly read internet experts claiming the federal law requiring serial numbers applies only to license holders.

The BATFE regulations I've been able to find discuss only marking of PMFs received by licensees:
§ 478.92(a)(2)
2.PRIVATELY MADE FIREARMS (PMFS). Unless previously identified by another licensee in accordance with, and except as otherwise provided by, this section, licensees must legibly and conspicuously identify each privately made firearm or “PMF” received or otherwise acquired (including from a personal collection) not later than the seventh day following the date of receipt or other acquisition, or before the date of disposition (including to a personal collection), whichever is sooner. PMFs must be identified by placing, or causing to be placed under the licensee's direct supervision, an individual serial number on the frame or receiver, which must not duplicate any serial number placed by the licensee on any other firearm. The serial number must begin with the licensee's abbreviated Federal firearms license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., “12345678-[unique identification number]”. The serial number must be placed in a manner otherwise in accordance with this section, including the requirements that the serial number be at the minimum size and depth, and not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. An acceptable method of identifying a PMF is by placing the serial number on a metal plate that is permanently embedded into a polymer frame or receiver, or other method approved by the Director.


I haven't found anything about marking by the private maker.

But the statute seems clear.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby Jackpine Savage on Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:09 pm

I didn't think that it was federally required. If I remember right, BATF's new frame rule required FFL's to obtain a serial number if a frame came into their possession.

I think the Minnesota statute was just passed last year. I heard nothing about until Bryan posted on a thread a several weeks ago. This needs to be publicized more.

And it needs to be changed to at least not apply to firearms made before serial numbers were required.
Last edited by Jackpine Savage on Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby UpNorthSavage on Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:36 pm

Does not the section 26 reference NFA items?
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby Rip Van Winkle on Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:48 pm

I don't know what the "internet experts" say. We had an older member in the gun club who made his own rifles. He told me, he couldn't sell them, and he had to serialize them.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby bstrawse on Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:09 pm

We have some written material coming out soon on this topic, but there is no federal requirement for a privately made firearm to have a serial number unless it is subject to the National Firearms Act.

We are, however, seeing the State of Minnesota prosecuting some cases related to a misreading (in our opinion) of a state statute on this matter.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby jdege on Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:51 pm

The MN statute is: 609.667 FIREARMS; REMOVAL OR ALTERATION OF SERIAL NUMBER.
Whoever commits any of the following acts may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both:

(1) obliterates, removes, changes, or alters the serial number or other identification of a firearm;

(2) receives or possesses a firearm, the serial number or other identification of which has been obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or

(3) receives or possesses a firearm that is not identified by a serial number.

As used in this section, "serial number or other identification" means the serial number and other information required under United States Code, title 26, section 5842, for the identification of firearms.


The US Code referenced is: 26 U.S.C. § 5842 - U.S. Code. Identification of firearms
(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices.--Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

(b) Firearms without serial number.--Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

(c) Identification of destructive device.--Any firearm classified as a destructive device shall be identified in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.


But here's the thing. 26USC5842 is part of the National Firearms Act, and in it we find definitions: 26 U.S.C. § 5845. Definitions
For the purpose of this chapter--

(a) Firearm.--The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;  (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;  (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;  (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;  (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);  (6) a machinegun;  (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of Title 18, United States Code);  and (8) a destructive device.  The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.


In other words, the serial number requirements in the section referenced by MN Stat 609.667 applies only to NFA firearms. This kind of thing is exactly why I don't put too much weight on my own legal research.

It's certainly possible that a MN court will interpret that the reference to federal law is only for the purpose of describing how markings must be done, and not for the purpose of defining which firearms must be marked. But at best this is an ambiguous law, and I'd argue that the case should be dismissed as being unconstitutionally vague.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby Grayskies on Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:06 pm

From all the "ghost gun" non-sense I watched.

You only need to add serial numbers if you are going to sell your home made firearm.

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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby Jackpine Savage on Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:30 pm

gun_fan111v2 wrote:Read through this https://gofund.me/32184d77


Thanks for posting that. I kicked in some money.

The Sherburne County prosecutor sounds like an ass.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby jdege on Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:43 pm

Jackpine Savage wrote:The Sherburne County prosecutor sounds like an ass.

He sounds like a lazy sob who's not doing the work he's paid to do.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby Jackpine Savage on Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:47 pm

jdege wrote:
Jackpine Savage wrote:The Sherburne County prosecutor sounds like an ass.

He sounds like a lazy sob who's not doing the work he's paid to do.


Or is he one of the Left wingers that is doing exactly what the Left wants him to do.
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Re: Serial numbers on privately made firearms?

Postby Grayskies on Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:04 pm

Jackpine Savage wrote:
jdege wrote:
Jackpine Savage wrote:The Sherburne County prosecutor sounds like an ass.

He sounds like a lazy sob who's not doing the work he's paid to do.


Or is he one of the Left wingers that is doing exactly what the Left wants him to do.


Isn’t their job to wear us down and cost us our savings so we give up our rights due to exhaustion and bankruptcy?
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