Home gunsmithing gone wrong

[mmcnx2]

The shot clock said it was .2-.5 seconds from the buzzer (if I remember that right) to the discharge, and she claims she hadn't touched the gun yet. RO asked if she pulled two times, which makes me believe her hand was on it when it went off.

I beleive she says the clock was .025 not .25. If it really was .025 she still could have moved prior to the buzzer, so I'm not really sure what the clock proves. In terms of witnesses, I don't put much stock that someone standing behind her would be able to determine if she jumped the buzzer or if they really were watching her hands that close. By the time the shot went off I suspect that is when people started looking.

But assuming she did not fire the pistol, the failure should be pretty easy to replicate. She implies the mods are to blame so put it back together and put in a dummy round and shake the crap out of it. That movement should be much more than it holstered on her hip waiting for a buzzer.

As you can guess I don't have a bunch of sympathy for her, she made some really bad decisions and even if it was the modified gun that was her call also.

In terms of Ben(the instructor) I took one of his classes years ago, he is OK, certainly not a gunsmith, nice guy that can shoot like a madman, but his instructor skills were not as good as others I've taken. So in other classes with other instructors I would have expected this may have been stopped sooner when she was have failures or if they found out it was an unknown firearm. Ben let her continue, so he also had a slight hand in the bad decisions.

[hammAR]

Guessing that the striker slipped off the sear due to the modifications. If that is the case I have to wonder why the striker block didn't trap it and prevent discharge. It would seem that the striker block was also modified or otherwise non-functional, as was the take-up - but to what end?

Another good lesson here, carry a first aid kit that includes a tourniquet. Take at least a basic first aid course so that you know how to use it. The life you could save may include your own.

[Hmac]

Another good lesson here, carry a first aid kit that includes a tourniquet. Take at least a basic first aid course so that you know how to use it. The life you could save may include your own.

Tourniquet was not necessary, or even helpful, in this case, but it's true that there been a major arterial injury, a tourniquet would be potentially helpful if we're talking about a 90 minute ambulance ride.

[gun_fan111v2]

I need to watch the video again since I skipped through it the first time but here is my question:

Some of the popular competition holsters angle the grip away from the body, and angle the muzzle towards it... Why would people buy those? $20-30 will get you a holster that sits away from the body but runs parallel to it.

[Squib Joe]

I do wonder if, just maybe, she had some loose clothing pulled into the holster, and when she either moved her torso or gripped the pistol and pushed down slightly it discharged (I noticed her jersey was untucked and fairly loose in the video).

Otherwise I don't see how this could have happened with just a bubba'd sear, because as mentioned the striker should still be blocked

[hammAR]

Another good lesson here, carry a first aid kit that includes a tourniquet. Take at least a basic first aid course so that you know how to use it. The life you could save may include your own.

Tourniquet was not necessary, or even helpful, in this case, but it's true that there been a major arterial injury, a tourniquet would be potentially helpful if we're talking about a 90 minute ambulance ride.

Exsanguination is the term for bleeding to death. If the bleeding is from an arterial source, death may only take 20 seconds to a couple of minutes. Keep in mind though that the particular artery involved will determine how quickly you bleed out. If the blood vessel is a large one like the abdominal aorta, and if this vessel was lacerated in half, then massive hemorrhage ensues and death comes in literally 20-25 seconds. If the artery is smaller in size, and no first aid was received by the victim, then death will come in 2-3 minutes........

[Hmac]

Another good lesson here, carry a first aid kit that includes a tourniquet. Take at least a basic first aid course so that you know how to use it. The life you could save may include your own.

Tourniquet was not necessary, or even helpful, in this case, but it's true that there been a major arterial injury, a tourniquet would be potentially helpful if we're talking about a 90 minute ambulance ride.

Exsanguination is the term for bleeding to death. If the bleeding is from an arterial source, death may only take 20 seconds to a couple of minutes. Keep in mind though that the particular artery involved will determine how quickly you bleed out. If the blood vessel is a large one like the abdominal aorta, and if this vessel was lacerated in half, then massive hemorrhage ensues and death comes in literally 20-25 seconds. If the artery is smaller in size, and no first aid was received by the victim, then death will come in 2-3 minutes........

As I said, tourniquet was not necessary, or even helpful, in this case. In fact, it may have contributed to her compartment syndrome, which was a far greater problem and far greater risk for her than bleeding. Tourniquets are vastly overused these days...popularized by military experience with IED injuries and working their way into the dogma of TCCC, which in turn has trickled into civilian EMS and has resulted in the frequently inappropriate application of the device. Such as in this case.

[crbutler]

I dunno, I wasn't there, but if her posterior tibial artery was disrupted as she said, then she may well have needed a tourniquet.

I agree that the comments on how things went from a medical end don't really make sense...if the gsw took out her posterior tibial artery, I cannot understand how she left the ED, unless they stabilized her and shipped her to the trauma center, i.e. Not discharged, in which case I would think air transport would have been used for a 90 minute run with a known vascular disruption... but then again, I was not there. In any case, the knowledge of what to do is more important than having some equipment would be. A belt makes an acceptable field expedient tourniquet if needed, but knowing when to use it is pretty nuanced. Take a first aid course and CPR.

As to the gun, geez, an M&P is hardly a high end piece. Why buy a modded used gun, unless you want the results of the mods, in which case, caveat emptor. From her comments, she was already a somewhat experienced competitor. She should have known that short reset and light pull mean mods to the fire control. To her credit, it sounds like she realizes that, but didn't think of the fact that there are differences between professional gunsmiths and home jobs by folks that may not know what they are doing. Sounds like that is what the argument will be with lawyers getting in the act.

She had a bad outcome, but at least she still has her leg. I know if one of my open gun rounds hit me like that, the likelihood is that the bullet would more or less amputate my leg.

As to gangrene, no, pretty unlikely. if she had bacteria growing in a confined space like a leg with compartment syndrome, it would already be off.

[MJY65]

Tourniquets are vastly overused these days...popularized by military experience with IED injuries and working their way into the dogma of TCCC, which in turn has trickled into civilian EMS and has resulted in the frequently inappropriate application of the device. Such as in this case.

I tend to agree. Most of us will live our entire lives and never be present at a situation where a tourniquet is necessary or helpful, yet gun boards are full of discussions about carrying them 24/7.

[Hmac]

I dunno, I wasn't there, but if her posterior tibial artery was disrupted as she said, then she may well have needed a tourniquet.

No the posterior tibial artery at mid-calf or lower is a fairly trivial artery. Furthermore, there was no spurting bright red blood that didn't respond to direct pressure (indications for tourniquet). An artery that size, if disrupted, will retract, close, and clot the vast majority of the time. Furthermore, subsequent treatment didn't indicate any vascular compromise. Finally, she was originally discharged from the first ER (unwisely) after three hours without any surgery and without any vascular repair. Prospectively they had no reason to apply a tourniquet, retrospectively she didn't need a tourniquet. This was a classic case of tourniquet being assumed to be the answer to every open extremity injury no matter its nature.

A GSW to the calf like that would warrant a scene flight to a Level 1 trauma center, not a 1 hour ambulance ride, and that is ESPECIALLY true if they thought (erroneously) that she needed a tourniquet. Bismarck was about 50 miles away. They have air transport, and there would be no problem landing a helicopter close by the site of the accident.

[crbutler]

You have more info than I got out of the little blurb quoted above.

I don't disagree that tourniquets are more trouble than they are worth, ditto to the rapid clot powders, in 99+% of cases.

I thought the wound was lateral thigh above the knee with exit at the medial ankle. (Female with a DOH holster). I didn't get anything about the wound stopping bleeding from pressure, and honestly, I suspect that if the artery was bleeding in the posterior compartment, that would explain the lack of pulsatile blood flow, the swelling, and the compartment syndrome happening rapidly after discharge and tourniquet release.

Like you, I cannot understand the lack of at least an inpatient observation period, let alone a trauma center visit, but maybe they called the trauma center and described things in a fashion that led to what happened. As I said, I don't know, I wasn't there.

I do find a lot of shooters think they need a tourniquet, an Israeli bandage and quick clot in their emergency first aid kit, but get annoyed when someone tells them forget that crap and take a good first aid class instead...

[MJY65]

I thought the wound was lateral thigh above the knee with exit at the medial ankle. (Female with a DOH holster).

Not a female, but one of the reasons I use a 15 degree holster. I know straight drop is supposed to be a little faster, but the 15 degree at least gives you a reasonable chance that a ND will go in the ground behind your foot instead of down your leg.

[Hmac]

You have more info than I got out of the little blurb quoted above.

I don't disagree that tourniquets are more trouble than they are worth, ditto to the rapid clot powders, in 99+% of cases.

I thought the wound was lateral thigh above the knee with exit at the medial ankle. (Female with a DOH holster). I didn't get anything about the wound stopping bleeding from pressure, and honestly, I suspect that if the artery was bleeding in the posterior compartment, that would explain the lack of pulsatile blood flow, the swelling, and the compartment syndrome happening rapidly after discharge and tourniquet release.

Like you, I cannot understand the lack of at least an inpatient observation period, let alone a trauma center visit, but maybe they called the trauma center and described things in a fashion that led to what happened. As I said, I don't know, I wasn't there.

I do find a lot of shooters think they need a tourniquet, an Israeli bandage and quick clot in their emergency first aid kit, but get annoyed when someone tells them forget that crap and take a good first aid class instead...

You may have a different impression of the magnitude of the posterior tibial artery than I do.

I think a lot of people ascribe a level of magic to tourniquets that they just don't have. I'm sure it can be a useful tool in a combat environment where someone suffers an extremity injury and has to be treated under fire, might involve more than one extremity, and subsequently have a long transport time. In civilian practice, a penetrating extremity arterial injury that can't be completely controlled with direct manual pressure or a compression bandage for the time of a typical ambulance ride would be extremely rare. It would be very unusual that any civilian would ever need any of the fancy bandages, powders, or tourniquets that people obsessively assemble. People, especially on gun forums, often go to great lengths to assemble an elaborate first aid kit to hang on their "battle belt" but never get any training about how to use the stuff. So yeah, I'm one of those guys that would tell a civilian/non-cop to forget all that crap at least until they have some first-aid training.

[FJ540]

What about a tampon? (serious question)

[Hmac]

What about a tampon? (serious question)

For a visible, spurting arterial wound, you need to apply direct pressure to the bleeding site. A tampon doesn't address that requirement in any way.