Just got kicked off the range at Bills in Robbinsdale

[Ghost]

If you bring an NFA item outside the house, you should have a copy of your NFA form 1 or form 4 just in case. I carry downsized hi-res copies the size of an index card stuffed into a sealed VFG or into the grip.

I also keep copies of mine on my iPhone. Always with me and even the government can't hack it.

[Snakeman721]

...But, we don't kick them out for touiching the buffer tube to their cheek...

I'm going to assume you meant to say "shoulder", not cheek here correct...?

No...cheek is correct. Is it legal because it's "not shouldered"...I don't know, I'm not the ATF. The people who I see do it get my warning (more like info than a warning) and I let them shoot. Personally, I don't care how they hold their AR pistols as long as it's in a safe manner...i.e., don't have your hand or fingers out in front of the barrel...yep, seen that on a really short AR pistol. Fingers out just slightly beyond the end of the barrel. Caught him and advised him on the dangers, then let him shoot.

[Snakeman721]

,,, As for having your tax stamp for suppressors and SBRs, a photocopy is good to go. And yes, it's for covering our butt. The ATF does regular audits and who knows if they might happen to glance in at the goings on the range.
...

So you're responsible for making sure everyone one your range is legal? Do you do background checks on everyone who rents a gun and/or uses the range? Do you serial number check everyone's gun to make sure it's not stolen? Of course not - because not only would you be drowning in red tape, but you would also have no customers. But you realize that your singling out people who have gone to additional time, expense, and scrutiny only to again have to prove that they are law abiding? As I said before, being on the receiving end of it does not feel pleasant. Not only that, but what are your next steps if I don't show proper documentation?

Those somewhat snarky questions aside - what happens if the range gets audited by the ATF while someone with a suppressor is on the line? Do they believe you that you checked the papers, or will they also check the stamps? If they would still check, what's the point?

If there is something else at work that I'm not understanding please educate me. Right now what it feels like is the ATF is asking/pressing on ranges to do their job for them(I know you can't speak for Bill's, but I'm under the assumption that they are in the same boat). Instead of taking the ATF's suggestions under advisement, ranges are jumping in to help.

I absolutely agree with friendly education, but I fail to see how the range is liable for the felon that used the range - just as I fail to see how the range is liable for someone shouldering a sig brace - just as I fail to see how the range is liable for allowing someone to shoot a suppressor without checking their stamp.

No, we assume you obtained your firearm in a legal manner and are legal to own one. But NFA items that require a tax stamp...yes, we are covering our butts. Also, not sure about it...maybe someone can check...but doesn't the ATF require you to carry your tax stamp (or photocopy) with the affected firearm?

[Randygmn]

,,, As for having your tax stamp for suppressors and SBRs, a photocopy is good to go. And yes, it's for covering our butt. The ATF does regular audits and who knows if they might happen to glance in at the goings on the range.
...

So you're responsible for making sure everyone one your range is legal? Do you do background checks on everyone who rents a gun and/or uses the range? Do you serial number check everyone's gun to make sure it's not stolen? Of course not - because not only would you be drowning in red tape, but you would also have no customers. But you realize that your singling out people who have gone to additional time, expense, and scrutiny only to again have to prove that they are law abiding? As I said before, being on the receiving end of it does not feel pleasant. Not only that, but what are your next steps if I don't show proper documentation?

Those somewhat snarky questions aside - what happens if the range gets audited by the ATF while someone with a suppressor is on the line? Do they believe you that you checked the papers, or will they also check the stamps? If they would still check, what's the point?

If there is something else at work that I'm not understanding please educate me. Right now what it feels like is the ATF is asking/pressing on ranges to do their job for them(I know you can't speak for Bill's, but I'm under the assumption that they are in the same boat). Instead of taking the ATF's suggestions under advisement, ranges are jumping in to help.

I absolutely agree with friendly education, but I fail to see how the range is liable for the felon that used the range - just as I fail to see how the range is liable for someone shouldering a sig brace - just as I fail to see how the range is liable for allowing someone to shoot a suppressor without checking their stamp.

No, we assume you obtained your firearm in a legal manner and are legal to own one. But NFA items that require a tax stamp...yes, we are covering our butts. Also, not sure about it...maybe someone can check...but doesn't the ATF require you to carry your tax stamp (or photocopy) with the affected firearm?

I'm sorry, but you speak of "covering your butts", so I'd like to know exactly what liability ownership has by not policing its customers. I'm not interested in generalities, but rather the specifics. I've never seen a Bill's RO ask to see the permit of someone (myself included), removing their concealed pistol from their holster, at the line, preparing to practice with their carry firearm. Both require extra "paperwork" (PTC, Tax stamp).

[Ghost]

No, we assume you obtained your firearm in a legal manner and are legal to own one. But NFA items that require a tax stamp...yes, we are covering our butts. Also, not sure about it...maybe someone can check...but doesn't the ATF require you to carry your tax stamp (or photocopy) with the affected firearm?

Yes, they require that you carry a copy. Unless you're an ATF agent or somebody with a real badge you have no legal right to see it. You do have the right to ask people to leave for not showing it at a private venue but then bad publicity of the internet age may make that not in your best interest.

[Bitter Bastard]

No, we assume you obtained your firearm in a legal manner and are legal to own one. But NFA items that require a tax stamp...yes, we are covering our butts. Also, not sure about it...maybe someone can check...but doesn't the ATF require you to carry your tax stamp (or photocopy) with the affected firearm?

Yes, they require that you carry a copy. Unless you're an ATF agent or somebody with a real badge you have no legal right to see it. You do have the right to ask people to leave for not showing it at a private venue but then bad publicity of the internet age may make that not in your best interest.

Bull sh*t. There is NO requirement to carry your NFA tax stamp or copy of it. Sure, it's a good idea but not required. Some states have NFA paperwork as an affirmative defense, others take the much more American "presumed innocent" route.

I've had NFA stuff for almost 10 years now, Bill's Robbinsdale has never asked to see paperwork. The one time I'm at Circle Pines about 6 months ago and the RO asked to see it, in a not really asking kind of way. He really examined it too, as if I would present a forged copy or something. I really do wonder what Bill's official policy on that is? I wanted to keep shooting, so I let him look at it.

As someone else said, what specifically are range owners afraid of the ATF doing, should the ATF discover someone using an unregistered NFA device on their range? I've never heard of repercussions against a range for customer NFA violations. I would ASSume it is a range's way of trying to get on ATF's good side, as if that is a thing.


Bitter Bastard

[Ghost]

No, we assume you obtained your firearm in a legal manner and are legal to own one. But NFA items that require a tax stamp...yes, we are covering our butts. Also, not sure about it...maybe someone can check...but doesn't the ATF require you to carry your tax stamp (or photocopy) with the affected firearm?

Yes, they require that you carry a copy. Unless you're an ATF agent or somebody with a real badge you have no legal right to see it. You do have the right to ask people to leave for not showing it at a private venue but then bad publicity of the internet age may make that not in your best interest.

Bull sh*t. There is NO requirement to carry your NFA tax stamp or copy of it. Sure, it's a good idea but not required. Some states have NFA paperwork as an affirmative defense, others take the much more American "presumed innocent" route.

I've had NFA stuff for almost 10 years now, Bill's Robbinsdale has never asked to see paperwork. The one time I'm at Circle Pines about 6 months ago and the RO asked to see it, in a not really asking kind of way. He really examined it too, as if I would present a forged copy or something. I really do wonder what Bill's official policy on that is? I wanted to keep shooting, so I let him look at it.

As someone else said, what specifically are range owners afraid of the ATF doing, should the ATF discover someone using an unregistered NFA device on their range? I've never heard of repercussions against a range for customer NFA violations. I would ASSume it is a range's way of trying to get on ATF's good side, as if that is a thing.


Bitter Bastard

Required may be a stretch however you seem bitter and I suggest you read the back of your form 1/4 where it says proof of registration. "Shall be made available to any ATF officer on request". You can try the, "You wait here, I'll run home and get it" defense. Let me know how that works out for you.

Edit: I said anybody with a real badge above, they have no legal right to see the documents but they could arrest you for probable cause for having an unregistered NFA item until you can get it sorted out. Up to you if you want to screw around with it.

[goosed]

Required may be a stretch however you seem bitter and I suggest you read the back of your form 1/4 where it says proof of registration. "Shall be made available to any ATF officer on request". You can try the, "You wait here, I'll run home and get it" defense. Let me know how that works out for you.

Edit: I said anybody with a real badge above, they have no legal right to see the documents but they could arrest you for probable cause for having an unregistered NFA item until you can get it sorted out. Up to you if you want to screw around with it.

Yep, that pretty much covers it all. No requirement to carry paperwork with you at all times. However, possession of an NFA item is a "defense to prosecution", so you are guilty till proven innocent. To each their own, as you'll likely beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride without paperwork on you.

To me, any range checking paperwork is opening a can of worms. Are all range staff trained on all NFA stamps? Verifying stamp vs serial #? Verify stamp vs trust and ID? Seems like a lot of potential for unnecessary liability and unhappy patrons...

Something like adding a small section of text to the waiver everyone signs when they shoot at the range is less hostile towards your patrons, eliminates concerns of improperly checked stamps/trust paper work and covers your ass all the same. Sure, having a lawyer add some text may not be cheap, but NFA items aren't going any where. Is saving a few pennies up front really worth the bad press, unhappy patrons and increased liability?

[mmcnx2]

Not defending Bills (not a fan) or any other range. But they are attempting (maybe weakly) to protect themselves from the ATF (perceived or real threats) In terms of upsetting customers, practically speaking the NFA item customers are such a small percentage of the market I really don't think having those few not show up will really impacts their business.

Part of business is mitigating risk in relation to benefit. They have decided (right or wrong) that NFA item customers pose a risk and they have decided how to mitigate it. If you don't like it don't do business with them. Bitching about it not solving the issue. If you want to change it show up at the range without your high and mighty hat on and ask to talk to their manager and have a discussion about their practices and try to understand their side first, then offer some education and see if you can alter their views.

Otherwise go back to supporting Bernie Sanders, he is glad to tell you what is wrong with the world and who to blame, just don't expect him to fix it.

[photogpat]

Not defending Bills (not a fan) or any other range. But they are attempting (maybe weakly) to protect themselves from the ATF (perceived or real threats) In terms of upsetting customers, practically speaking the NFA item customers are such a small percentage of the market I really don't think having those few not show up will really impacts their business.

Part of business is mitigating risk in relation to benefit. They have decided (right or wrong) that NFA item customers pose a risk and they have decided how to mitigate it. If you don't like it don't do business with them. Bitching about it not solving the issue. If you want to change it show up at the range without your high and mighty hat on and ask to talk to their manager and have a discussion about their practices and try to understand their side first, then offer some education and see if you can alter their views.

Otherwise go back to supporting Bernie Sanders, he is glad to tell you what is wrong with the world and who to blame, just don't expect him to fix it.

I believe both Clay and Joe are part of this group. Ask them and see what they say - but I suspect you're right.

[bstrawse]

I suspect the NFA paperwork rule at places like Bill's has a lot less to do with suppressors and SBRs and much more to do with automatic weapons..

[Sorcerer]

Having a "Breaking news" flash is not going to win a range any points with a city government. Can/ could ANY one in LO ask to see your tax stamp? If so, you can't tell a LO from the rest of us until the badge is in your face. Then SHTF.

[Snakeman721]

I'm sorry, but you speak of "covering your butts", so I'd like to know exactly what liability ownership has by not policing its customers. I'm not interested in generalities, but rather the specifics. I've never seen a Bill's RO ask to see the permit of someone (myself included), removing their concealed pistol from their holster, at the line, preparing to practice with their carry firearm. Both require extra "paperwork" (PTC, Tax stamp).

We don't ask to see CC permits. The law is clear on that...only LE can ask to to see your permit. If you come on the range with a holstered gun on your side, I assume you have a CC permit. Like one person said, the NFA items mostly of concern are full auto weapons. What exact liability does this cover? I'm not sure, I didn't make the range rules, I just try to enforce them. I do know that when someone squeezes off 15-20 rounds in 2 seconds from a full auto AR (we rent one), it gets everybodys attention. If you want a better explanation, I invite you to come on out to Osseo Gun Club and talk to the owner Chris Williamson. Maybe stay and shoot a bit. We are waaaaaay better than Bills! If fact, my biggest problems are with Bills customers....I have to tell them that we are the UN-Bills and we DO NOT ALLOW CASING/UNCASING BEHIND THE FIRING LINE...only AT the firing line. We also allow you to collect your brass, no hassles.

[mrp]

We don't ask to see CC permits. The law is clear on that...only LE can ask to to see your permit.

I think you're confused, either on what the law actually says or, more generally, how laws work. Can you quote the law you're referring to and explain your reasoning?

Do you believe that a restaurant could not have and enforce a policy that customers can not carry unless they show a permit? (Note that this doesn't mean that a customer _must_ show their permit, only that they have to if they want to remain on the premises.)

[igofast]

I'm sorry, but you speak of "covering your butts", so I'd like to know exactly what liability ownership has by not policing its customers. I'm not interested in generalities, but rather the specifics. I've never seen a Bill's RO ask to see the permit of someone (myself included), removing their concealed pistol from their holster, at the line, preparing to practice with their carry firearm. Both require extra "paperwork" (PTC, Tax stamp).

We don't ask to see CC permits. The law is clear on that...only LE can ask to to see your permit. If you come on the range with a holstered gun on your side, I assume you have a CC permit. ...

You realize that Federal Law is clear on who may ask to see NFA registration papers(26 U.S.C. § 5841(e) and specific guidance here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-po ... gistration). Of course - being a private business and as previously mentioned, you can ask whatever you want(show your PTC, Stamp, bow to the Budda or whatever) and I can choose not to you and you can choose not to offer your goods and/or services.

I think what Randygmn was getting at(apologies if I'm off base): you stated the range assumed NFA items are illegal unless proven otherwise(which I can't find any legal precedent for), yet the same standards are not being applied to someone who is carrying despite carrying in MN is illegal and the defense of such is showing your PTC(ref here: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=55949&p=551763#p551763 and other previous threads on the issue).

Note that I'm not saying you should be asking to see peoples PTC or anything else. I appreciate that you are aware of AR/AK(and other) pistols and are ok with their use(unlike Bills apparently). I'm just trying to bring to light an issue that I'm not sure is being forced on you from the outside or maybe not carefully thought out, and hoping that other ranges aren't taking the same stance. As far as your offer to discuss this - neither Chris' wife nor Chris seemed interested when it came up a couple months back - of course it was a busy Sunday - but I live an hour away so don't/can't show up on a whim to see who may or may not be available. I think this thread has various good points both for and against - maybe you could point Chris here, perhaps he has some additional insight that would be helpful.

I appreciate your continued contribution to this thread.