New gun, new TV, and the loss prevention guy at Best Buy

[cobb]

Want to be a gun slinger, join ISPC, IDPA or what not.

Tunnel vision at it's finest.

All shooting sports will get you familiar with you handgun, and that alone is good. Learning to clear a malfunction, drawing, shooting around a barricade, reloading the handgun on the clock and under pressure. All of this makes one familiar with their handgun and can be a big benefit when under stress and having to deal with a real threat. Maybe, and just maybe the manipulation of your handgun under a life and death situation will be just second nature because of familiarization and then you can focus on the other factors of the situation you are now facing.

A fact, no, but maybe the small edge of being familiar with your handgun from shooting it in games can be a BIG factor in you surviving.

[farmerj]

So take offense...

My point is one of pretense and what is primary to the situation at hand?

What will IDPA or IPSC teach you about dealing with an individual Rent-A-Cop or bad dude? How to shoot them? How to deal with them?

You have no clue what we teach in our defensive handgun course. I invite you to come check it out this weekend. I think it would give you a better understanding of my reference of "gunslinger".

HammAR sent me a nice email about our little comments. I wasn't offended by his, and I don't believe he was offended by mine.

It is an issue of mindset and training. And is practicing the gunslinging the training needed for that situation?

[chunkstyle]

I occurs to me that a security guard trying to take away your gun in this circumstance is indeed a threat of GBH.

1) He's assaulting you, so you are already in danger, maybe not of GBH, yet, because he is unarmed.

2) If he's successful in disarming you, he will have your gun, and then you WILL be in such danger.

Should you shoot him? I would say, not right away. But give him a look down your barrel, and see if that deters him.

[cobb]

It is an issue of mindset and training.

I agree, but I also think that all trigger time with your handgun is good. There are those that like to point out that those cardboard targets in IPSC and IDPA don't shoot back and it isn't defensive training. Again I agree, but the more time that you spend shooting your handgun, the more it becomes second nature and allows a person to deal with the real situation at hand.
So yes I shoot IDPA, but I also go to training such as Front Site, Massob Ayoob, Suarez International, John Farnam, among others and the last three deal alot with mindset. But I get the most familiarization with my handgun with IDPA games.

[farmerj]

I occurs to me that a security guard trying to take away your gun in this circumstance is indeed a threat of GBH.

1) He's assaulting you, so you are already in danger, maybe not of GBH, yet, because he is unarmed.

2) If he's successful in disarming you, he will have your gun, and then you WILL be in such danger.

Should you shoot him? I would say, not right away. But give him a look down your barrel, and see if that deters him.

And I maintain that against a security guard, you would be hard pressed to press AOJP for someone doing there job in this situation. They are looked upon as the "stores LEO". I am not agreeing it is right, it is just as a "jury of your peers" would see it.

What other things could you have done to de-escalate the situation? How else might YOU have handled it?

Having a permit is more than trigger time. It's more than practice. I think IDPA, IPSC and the other sports are worth every minute spent practicing. That is the "gunslinging" part.

What classes have you taken to deal with personalities? Behaviors or conflict avoidance?

That is what I believe to be the defensive part.

If one takes offense to the term gunslinger, I am sorry. We have different perceptions as I knew the term would.

It is also a way to bring the emotion to the situation. It will show how you react.

Do you take offense or do you try to understand anothers point of view?

I saw the opportunity as a way over the net to BE that security guard. How would you react.

[hammAR]

So take offense...

My point is one of pretense and what is primary to the situation at hand?

What will IDPA or IPSC teach you about dealing with an individual Rent-A-Cop or bad dude? How to shoot them? How to deal with them?

HammAR sent me a nice email about our little comments. I wasn't offended by his, and I don't believe he was offended by mine.

It is an issue of mindset and training. And is practicing the gunslinging the training needed for that situation?

farmerj and I are in agreement, and that is why I posted the question that I did, just so that we could have this discussion. I don't think that any of us are in disagreement about training and practice, however, the shooting and shooting accurately part is 10-15% of the total equation, with which I totally agree.

It's kind of like a 12 step program done in a micro second, with the last step being the shooting part. Situational awareness is the first key, closely followed by threat assessment. Neither of these are really practiced in the games, as your mindset is prepped already that it is a shooting situation. What you do not get, which is necessary in street situations, is the proper methods to escalate or de-escallate a situation. Then you throw in the retention issues, again mindset, as opposed to draw and shoot....which is what you have been practicing........who was it that said that you react the way that you train (practice)........

Not that I agree with it, but I can see why many support the "duty to retreat" as opposed to "stand your ground" part of the MPPA......................Oh well a good discussion.....................

[Andrew Rothman]

So, theoretically, you wouldn't get into any trouble.

Remember that 609.06 provides a defense for use of reasonable force, where "reasonable" is defined by 12-people-not-smart-enough-to-get-out-of-jury-duty, who have days to mull it over, where you had seconds, at best.

Would a Hennepin County jury, say, conclude that it was "reasonable" to point your gun at a store security guard who was simply "doing his job"?

Not a good bet.

That's a long way of saying that there are lots of good reasons to try to find a better way of coping than to draw down on a rent-a-cop.

So assume in that case you pulled your weapon but did not shoot, just to stop the guy from assaulting you, how deep would the trouble get.........

IANAL

I believe that qualifies as use of force, which is covered by 609.06.

609.06 AUTHORIZED USE OF FORCE.
Subdivision 1. When authorized. Except as otherwise provided in subdivision 2, reasonable
force may be used upon or toward the person of another without the other's consent when the
following circumstances exist or the actor reasonably believes them to exist:
...

So, theoretically, you wouldn't get into any trouble. However, pulling a gun on a rent-a-cop because he's an over-zealous dick probably qualifies as a really bad idea, not just from a PR standpoint. You may be authorized to point it, but, if there's no threat of GBH, you might as well be waving your.....nevermind. No GBH means you can't legally shoot, which means your gun should stay in its holster, IMHO.

IANAL

[princewally]

Not a good bet.

I gave a different reason, but my conclusion was still

....qualifies as a really bad idea....

I would be willing to bet(note: a small amount of money, not my life or freedom) that it would be legal. That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.

[Andrew Rothman]

Well, it all comes down to a jury's interpretation of the "reasonable person" standard, and that's rarely a good bet. What're the odds? I might want to take some of that action!

[princewally]

Well, it all comes down to a jury's interpretation of the "reasonable person" standard, and that's rarely a good bet. What're the odds? I might want to take some of that action!

I, err, borrowed this from FrontSight's newsletter for my classes.

Take out a $100.00 bill. Let’s make a bet. If I win the bet I get your one hundred dollars. If you win the bet you get to keep your one hundred dollars. Is that a good bet? That is a gun fight. You risk everything and you don’t win anything. You just keep what you have. (Sometimes you don’t get to keep what you have because defending against criminal and civil liability costs you lots of money.)

I've never had anybody not get the point, and it certainly applies to a situation like this.

[jac714]

Deleted by Author Served no useful purpose

[hammAR]

Deleted by Author Served no useful purpose

....I thought that I was the only one that did that............

.

[macphisto]

Deleted by Author Served no useful purpose

....I thought that I was the only one that did that............

.

I should learn to do that once in a while.

[jac714]

Deleted by Author Served no useful purpose

....I thought that I was the only one that did that............

.

I am metaphorically biting my tounge.

My hope is that it is the beginning of wisdom brought about by old age.

[farmerj]

Deleted by Author Served no useful purpose

....I thought that I was the only one that did that............

.

I am metaphorically biting my tounge.

My hope is that it is the beginning of wisdom brought about by old age.

is that the Age before wisdom thing?


Or just olde enuff to know better and not young enuff to get away with it anymore.