Experts say Kids NEVER should be near guns

[gunshop guy]

OK, so this was an article in the current issue of Parents Magazine. My wife read it and then handed it to me. Now, it is a long article, but interesting to read. I am curious about your thoughts. I found part of it interesting, and part of it frustrating. So, read away and voice your opinions.

"Is There a Gun in the House?"
by Virginia Holman, Photo by Holly Limden


It's a question that a lot of parents are reluctant to ask. Our advice: Get over it and find out.

Loaded Question



From the time my son was 4 years old, my husband and I have made it a habit to inquire about guns before we allow him to play at a new friend's house. We phrase our question gently but directly: "I know you probably don't like to talk about things like this, but I need to ask if you have a gun in your house." We usually explain that we're asking because of a family tragedy. Twenty years ago, my husband's teenage cousin was killed while he and a friend were horsing around with his mother's handgun. Needless to say, his death devastated the family.

When our son was born, my husband and I decided that along with asking questions about seat-belt use and inappropriate movies, we'd also always find out about guns. Because I ask, I've discovered some things I wouldn't have expected. I learned that, as homeowners without guns, we're in the minority on our block. I found out about a politically liberal mother who keeps a locked and unloaded gun in her home. And I know of another family who has several handguns and shotguns with trigger locks, and who says they keep the ammunition stored separately. Although I almost always feel nervous asking, not one person has ever seemed upset by my question. What's most remarkable to me is that before leaving a child in my care no one has ever asked me whether I keep guns in my home.

The Stats
Parents seem willing to discuss almost any intimacy: breastfeeding, co-sleeping, spanking, how much their home has appreciated, the tawdry details of the latest Hollywood or Washington sex scandal. But they're oddly reticent when it comes to talking about firearms. Socially, it just seems easier to assume that a playdate's parents are taking adequate measures to protect him from guns.

Sadly, that's not always the case: According to a recent report in Pediatrics, nearly 1.7 million American children live in homes with unlocked, loaded firearms. So most experts agree that maintaining a head-in-the-sand posture on gun safety is a cop-out that puts kids at serious risk.

But it's a common one. A study by San Francisco General Hospital and the Harvard School of Public Health suggests that parents are more confident than they should be about how well they protect kids from getting their hands on household guns. In 39 percent of families where parents said their 5- to 14-year-olds didn't know where guns were stored, the kids actually did know the location. In 22 percent of homes where the parents said their children had never handled a gun, the kids told researchers that they had.

When children can get their hands on guns, the danger is clear. "Kids see a ball, they bounce it. They see a gun; they shoot it," says Graham Snyder, MD, an emergency-medicine specialist at WakeMed Health and Hospitals, in Raleigh, North Carolina. "Even young children know exactly what to do with a gun: Point at something and shoot it. That's what they see on TV or in the movies."

Playing It Safe
The good news is that, in recent years, there's been a growing awareness about gun safety, with physicians leading the charge. Since 2000, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) has urged doctors to ask, "Does anyone in your home have a gun?" and "Is the gun unloaded and locked up?" as part of a battery of standard questions during early childhood checkups, along with "Do you have smoke alarms?" and "Have you checked the batteries recently?" Not everyone, however, is in favor of these kinds of inquiries. Last year, Virginia legislators considered a bill that could have suspended or revoked the license of any doctor who asked patients questions about gun ownership. The measure failed, but by a close margin.

Schools, too, have begun to include gun safety as part of their regular curriculum, albeit slowly. One of the best-known initiatives is the "Eddie Eagle GunSafe Program," created by the National Rifle Association, which aims to educate children on what to do if they find themselves in the presence of a gun. A program for pre-kindergartners through third-graders, for instance, teaches children who see a gun to: "Stop! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult."

While such initiatives help raise awareness, experts say that warning kids about the danger of firearms isn't enough to keep them safe. "Any parent knows that children don't always listen to what they're told," says Dr. Snyder.

Indeed, numerous studies by Marjorie Hardy, PhD, a professor of psychology at Eckerd College, in St. Petersburg, Florida, have shown that the powerful allure of a gun -- especially for boys -- easily outmatches the sternest warnings. In one study, a police officer spoke to a class of 60 kids, ages 4 to 6. The children were told, "Don't touch guns -- they're dangerous. If you see a gun, leave the area. Go tell an adult." In a follow-up session, the children indicated they'd learned the lesson, repeating what they'd been told to do. "But when we left them alone with disarmed guns," Dr. Hardy says, "they picked them up and shot everything in sight."

In a second study, a group of 4- to 7-year-olds got five days of lectures on resisting peer pressure, making good choices, and distinguishing toys from dangerous objects. Even then, when left alone with a gun, 65 percent of the children picked it up and played with it. The bottom line: Simply talking with young kids about firearms isn't enough to keep them safe.

How to Steer Clear
That's why it's critical for parents to keep their kids away from guns -- and the best way to do that is to always find out whether there's a weapon in any home where a kid goes to play. "You tell your toddler not to run into the street, but you also put up a fence," says Dr. Snyder. "You tell your preteen not to go to inappropriate Web sites and chat rooms, but you may also install Internet filters. Why wouldn't you ask whether there are firearms in a place where your child plays? What do you have to lose?"

Many parents admit that approaching the subject can be difficult. "When I first started asking other parents, I was really intimidated," says Paula Beer, a mother from Brooklyn, who began inquiring after reading a recommendation in a brochure. "But everyone I've asked has responded wonderfully. Parents say, 'That's a great question! I never thought to ask that.'" So far, no one has owned up to having a firearm in their home, Beer says. But if they did? "I'd tell them, 'It's not a judgment on you, but I have a very active little boy who's really curious and into everything. I just don't feel comfortable with him playing in a place where there are guns. Let's set up a playdate at my place.'"

That's what many experts believe is the best response. The AAP says that ideally there shouldn't be any guns in a home with kids. But aware that not everyone will abide by that recommendation, the AAP also offers guidelines on how to safely store firearms: "The gun should be unloaded and locked away, and the ammunition should be locked in a separate location," says Robert Sege, MD, chief of the division of general pediatrics and adolescent medicine at the New England Medical Center, in Boston. Dr. Snyder goes even further: He has coined what he calls the "20-2 rule": That is, in households with children, parents should have their guns secured with enough layers of protection -- a locked gun safe, a trigger lock, and bullets locked away from the unloaded weapon -- that a 20-year-old with 2 hours on his hands couldn't get to them. "If a 20-year-old can get to them with minimal effort, so can your average fifth-grader," Dr. Snyder says.

Tragic Consequences
If kids get their hands on weapons, the consequences can be tragic -- a lesson that Jeanne Caroline, of Largo, Florida, learned the hard way. In 2003, her 12-year-old son, Seanne, was killed when a friend decided to show off his dad's unlocked, loaded .357 Magnum. The weapon was "hidden" under the couch in the living room. "I had thought of myself as an overprotective mom," says Caroline. "I always asked the things I was supposed to ask of other parents: Are you going to use a seat belt? Is your dog friendly? I just didn't know to ask about guns. I assumed since my house was safe, my neighbors' homes were too."

Now Caroline has devoted her life to educating the public about gun safety. Through her organization, Seannes Wish Foundation, she's made a film for children, spoken at numerous school assemblies and camps, and organized an annual charity-golf tournament to increase awareness about the issue and to raise funds for gun-education programs.

Above all, Caroline has been urging moms and dads to ask the question she wishes she had asked. Her message is simple: "Never assume that other parents think of safety the same way you do." Always ask about guns -- and make sure you're completely comfortable with the answers -- before you let your child go anywhere to play.

Bringing Up the Tough Topic
Are you embarrassed to inquire about guns? Don't be: 97 percent of parents, including gun owners, wouldn't mind the question at all, reports PAX, a nonprofit organization dedicated to ending gun violence. Here are ways PAX suggests you can broach the subject.

"At our last doctor's appointment, my pediatrician asked me about gun storage. And I haven't stopped thinking about it since."

"I feel really weird asking this, and maybe you'll think I'm totally neurotic, but..."

"I want you to know that I've spoken to my kids about not playing with guns. Is this an issue that you've thought about?"

"All of us in the PTA (or in our church group or some such) have committed to making sure our children are safe. So I've gotten in the habit of asking everyone..."

"My child is so curious and gets into everything. I worry what would happen if he came across a gun."

"Did you see that newspaper article about the boy who found his father's hidden gun?"

"I had no idea until recently that about 35 percent of households with children have a gun. So I've started asking other parents before Henry plays at their home."

Copyright © 2007. Used with permission from the October 2007 issue of Parents magazine.

[gunflint]

My kids are grown so unfortunately I won't get the opportunity to have this discussion with anyone. I say unfortunately because I would enjoy the chance to ruin their day. The look on my wifes face would be priceless if some blissniny couple were to start interrogating me on seat belts,firearms, etc. My first response would probably be to inquire about her favorite position and weather or not he knows how to use his gun. I believe the conversation would probably head south from there.

[White Horseradish]

You know, this is not a conversation I've ever had with anyone. This likely has to do with the fact that I already know that about anyone I would think to leave my children with.

Thinking about it, this might not be a bad question to ask. It could either lead into an educational opportunity or a new range buddy.

[tt3]

There are quite a few things amiss in that article, as usual from that magazine.
Anyway, I have never been asked that question either, but I'd probably answer truthfully. Yes I have a loaded unlocked gun in the house. In fact, its with me everywhere I go.

The thing with guns and kids, man, I grew up around them. My dad must have had 20-30 in the house and we never ever thought of "playing" with them! He'd bring us to the range once in a while, make us help clean them afterwards, store them properly, and we'd talk about what they were and what they were used for.
None of us kids ever so much as touched one with out his permission until we were old enough to hunt. Hell, I had three rifles on a gun rack in my room!
Stupid.
You don't like my guns? I don't like your politics. Is that going to stop our kids from playing? Up to you.

[Rip Van Winkle]

Code: Select all

In a second study, a group of 4- to 7-year-olds got five days of lectures on resisting peer pressure, making good choices, and distinguishing toys from dangerous objects. Even then, when left alone with a gun, 65 percent of the children picked it up and played with it. The bottom line: Simply talking with young kids about firearms isn't enough to keep them safe.


My oldest son could field strip a 1911 when he was 7, I wonder if thats considered "playing with it".

My thoughts:

My boys are both grown up, but if one of their friends parents had asked, I would have no problem discussing the subject with them. Looking back, all my sons friends familys were/are big into hunting and fishing so I think we all assumed the guns were properly stored and the kids knew better.

The bottom line, gun proofing your kids is better than kid proofing your guns.

[jaysong]

Is there a risk in having a loaded gun in your home? The answer is YES! Is there a risk not having a loaded gun in your home? The answer again is YES! Which is the greater risk. Well, that depends on your situation and circumstances. To measure the risk in general terms we must looks at the statics. Strangely the statics are missing from this article. Must be a coincidence?

[gunshop guy]

OK, well it's nice to know that I am not the only one thinking along these lines. The line

The AAP says that ideally there shouldn't be any guns in a home with kids. But aware that not everyone will abide by that recommendation,

amused me. If I read this right anyone with guns should get rid of them if they have children. I just bought a new one (gun that is) and I do not have any plans on getting rid of anything in the near future.

[Aceq2jot]

I have 3 Guns in my house and two of which are loaded all the time But if they are not with me they are in the safe. My wife is fine witht he guns in the house and my toddler tells me guns are great and he wants to go shooting with Me
Several of my nieghbors who baby sit have guns in the house also, and i know the people of being sound in mind and body so i know the guns are locked up.

The only time it would worry me is if he was going some where i thought the parents were a bit off. Normally i can read people pretty well and 99% of the population in this day and age would keep the guns locked up. But unfortunately there are some parts of town where people hide them in the Sofa's etc. But i am sure my child wont be in that part of town or hanging with kids who parents may be questionable.

But when he gets old enough i will by him a 22 long rifle just like my Dad bought me and i will drill in to him Gun Safety.

[omega8omega]

If someone asks me if I have guns at home - it would trigger my question - "are you going to break into my house?"
This is probably most polite response they can get.
On another hand I won't let my girl visit the house where gun safety rules are neglected. But this is not against the guns, it's about safety.
My daughter is almost ten and got her first 22LR rifle in May. As a matter of fact she knows how to handle her rifle safely and using the rifle teaches her responsibility and accountability.

[Ironbear]

Of course it is important to remember why it is necessary to control your children's access to firearms!

[1911fan]

pure BS

think back to all the kids in the pioneer days who had guns. how many of them went on to be columbine killers,

THink back to my youth, there were LOADED guns at every door, and My dad was a pastor. It was assumed the every house had a gun at the door

[Andrew Rothman]

Well, it's not entirely baloney.

It's undeniably true that you can't entirely gun-proof your kids. When it's something as precious as my kids, I'm NOT going to rely on the good judgment of a five-year-old (or a 16-year-old, for that matter).

So I take the belt-and-suspenders approach: Teach the kids about guns, and keep them secure until they're responsible enough.

These parts killed me, though:

So far, no one has owned up to having a firearm in their home, Beer says. But if they did? "I'd tell them, 'It's not a judgment on you, but I have a very active little boy who's really curious and into everything. I just don't feel comfortable with him playing in a place where there are guns. Let's set up a playdate at my place.'"

So, it's about emotions, not safety?

The appropriate question is this: "Do you have any guns in your house that could be accessed by my child?" If a parent won't let their kid come to your house because you have guns in a gun safe, that's politics, not safety.

That's what many experts believe is the best response. The AAP says that ideally there shouldn't be any guns in a home with kids. But aware that not everyone will abide by that recommendation, the AAP also offers guidelines on how to safely store firearms: "The gun should be unloaded and locked away, and the ammunition should be locked in a separate location," says Robert Sege, MD, chief of the division of general pediatrics and adolescent medicine at the New England Medical Center, in Boston.

I guess I should consult the NRA on how to deal with childhood illnesses, since the pediatricians are the "experts" on gun safety. This "expert" clearly wants to ensure that a gun will never be used to injure a burglar, rapist or murderer.

Here's something I wrote when Kim Ode (in the Star Trib) wrote about the same nonsense:

Ask about guns? Sure, but ask about the other 99% of dangers, too
Star Tribune columnist Kim Ode exhorts her readers to ask about guns before letting their kids play at others' houses.

We're supposed to ask other parents if there are guns in their homes. Simple, right? As if asking will keep all the dragons at bay. We ask about other things -- peanuts for allergies or helmets for biking. But guns? Yikes. The question feels accusatory, political, nosy or just plain paranoid. All of which really are only excuses to dodge the issue.

We're supposed to ask, no matter how uncomfortable it feels. The Citizens for a Safer Minnesota are trying to make this as painless as possible, but they know it takes some practice. Its annual ASK campaign -- for Asking Saves Kids -- kicks off on Tuesday, the first day of summer. It's a day of facts and figures, a day to learn that nationwide, 40 percent of homes with children have guns, to learn those guns often are left unlocked or loaded.

There are statistics about fatalities, too, but thinking about the thousands who die is actually less frightening than thinking about just one child it could happen to, especially if that one is a child you kiss goodnight.

<snip>

Kim, how many thousands of kids do you think are killed in gun accidents every year? You do know that even as a columnist, you are allowed to fact-check, right?

In journalism school, this is what we call a "single source" story. Sure, it's a column, but when you only hear from one person, your view can be a bit, well, one-sided.

Anyway, asking about guns is a good idea, surely. Guns are involved in over one percent of accidental deaths of children.

Did you get that? Read it again. I'll wait.

Yup. One point three two percent, to be exact, according to the CDC.

The accidental death of any child is a tragedy, and one is too many, but if we're going to talk about keeping kids safe, let's talk about facts.

There were 73 million kids (under 18, to be specific) in the U.S. in 2002. Almost nine thousand died that year of accidental causes.

Here's how it breaks down:

Code: Select all

Cause or mechanism of death     Number    Percent
Motor Vehicles                  4819      55%
Drowning                        1007      12%
Suffocation                      920      11%
Other or unspecified             739       8%
Fire                             571       7%
Poison                           256       3%
Bicycles                         154       2%
Falls                            125       1%
Guns                             115       1%
Total                           8706     100%

A picture is worth a thousand words; this picture, I think, speaks volumes:



My conclusion? If you ask about guns, you'd better be asking about:

* seat belts and car seats
* bathtubs and five-gallon buckets
* plastic bags and old refrigerators
* lighters and matches
* cleaning chemicals and vitamins, and
* bikes, helmets and riding areas

...because each of those things results in more accidental deaths than guns.

If you ask about guns, and not the other things, I'm going to assume your concern is more political than practical.

[JoeH]

+1 on everything!

[someone1980]

I like the graph

[markandco]

This would be my first post because this topic seems to strike a nerve with me. I have been quietly reading and keeping my views to myself. I am a gun owner, permit holder, and ex-military. I belive in guns. I also have a 2 year old and another child on the way. I agree this is a great forum but.....

Why is it that the posters "gun rights" seem to superceed all others rights. Sure you can have any smug comment if a concerned parent asks if you have guns in the house. You can even use the "politics" excuse or relate the question to a sexual position choice but why make light of a parents concern? If a parent does not want thier child around guns why is that looked down on more that our choice to own guns? If the parents have a concern and you want your child to befriend the other child then why not meet somewhere else or figure out a solution. I read the solution here to be that your guns are more important than your child having a friend with parents that care enough to ask the question. I bet many people wish thier kids were involved with other kids with positive parents rather than the ones who buy beer and smokes for 15 year olds (had one living near us).

Gun saftey, also mentioned here, is great if your child has be taught but that does not protect them from the other child accidentaly shooting them because they have not been given the same instruction.

Will I ask about guns when my children go to other houses to play? I am sure I will along with a list of other questions. Will I run away and put my child in a bubble if they have guns, no. Chances are I will be carrying one when I ask the question. I may ask if they are out and loaded, or locked in a safe. Keeping in mind it is my choice to allow my child to stay at that house just as much as it is the homeowner's choice to have guns in the house.

Sorry for the rant but I would be crushed if my childeren were part of that 1% that was killed. I would be equally crushed if the other 99% caused it also. If I can ask a simple, adult, question and reduce that 1% chance I feel my children are worth it.

Thanks for reading my viewpoint.

Mark