How effective is the stopping power of a.357 Mag.

[bandit357]

Being a perspective law enforcement officer, I wonder what is the most effective caliber to use. I have always had respect for the .357 round, but recently I am starting to wonder if it is as bad-a** as some people think it is. I personly know of a man of medium build who took three rounds to the center mass, two in the lungs and one in the kidneys, at a distance of 5 yards and then got into his vehicle and drove to a neighbors house. Also seeing training videos of officer's who have used that round and ended up being shot and killed because of minimum penetration.

I would like to hear any one's opionion on what they think is prefferably the best round? My thoughts are now leaning towards nothing but a .45, but many agency's like to use a .40 cal. and now I even wonder how effective my .357 sig round is. I would think with the amount of velocity these two .357 rounds present, penitration and expansion would not be a problem when hitting a hard surface, of course .40 cal. has great ballistics, but does that round have enough ummmpppffff to do the job. I would like to hear some thoughts on this.

[justaguy]

Are you being serious?

Where is a mod?

[Paul]

There should be one right here... /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

[PhilaBOR]

The topic has been discussed ad nauseum on many forums. Try googling stopping power.

That said, no matter what the round, you can find a story of someone who took several to the chest and kept walking. I've heard it about 40, 45, and of course, many times about the 9mm our army and marines carry. The fact of the matter, most people that take a few of 9mm or above to the chest will end up dead in minutes if they don't get immediate help. Of course, if they live for a minute, that doesn't help if they're shooting you.

Hydrostatic shock: a controversial effect attributed to high velocity rounds. Wikipedia has an extensive discussion, but suffice it to say that the .357 can generate HS, which can damage the brain even if the shot hits in certain other places in the body. HS says the .357 is an effective round.

Full disclosure: I'm moving from 40 to .357 Sig in my carry. I think 40 is a great round, but .357 has a bit better penetration of cover/concealment.

What's the old saying? I think it's "Shot placement is king, capacity is queen, and caliber is the jack (or the joker?)."

Phil

[mmcnx2]

I know a guy....three rounds....

You should consider another career, maybe something that does not require you to carry a gun would be a better choice.

If god forbid you are serious, you should seek some help during the interview process and ask the department what they think is a bad-a** round. I'm sure they will be impressed by your concern.

[cobb]

I personly know of a man of medium build who took three rounds to the center mass, two in the lungs and one in the kidneys, at a distance of 5 yards and then got into his vehicle and drove to a neighbors house. Also seeing training videos of officer's who have used that round and ended up being shot and killed because of minimum penetration.

And I personally know someone that was shot with a .308 and did not know it until he looked at his wound. Gabe Suarez tells a story of a perp who was shot by an LEO with a shotgun, the slug traversed his upper chest and he got away. A day or so later the perps attorney contacted the LEO's department to make arrangements for the perp to turn himself in, because he believed he needed medical attention for his wound. Neither of these are common occurances, maybe the same for the stories that you mention above.

As mentioned, this topic has been beat to death and it is probably best to do some searches for studies and reports to get best information. I was told just last week by a student that an LEO friend of his had said that their department got away from the 9mm and went to the 40 S&W because there was a problem with the 9mm and over penetration. Now that is a new one.....

Me, I usually carry a 45 acp, with 200 grain Gold Dot +P, but sure wouldn't feel under gunned as far as handguns go, with a .357 magnum with premium ammunition. Of these complaints that like to blame the arrow, it is probably the indian that is the problem.

Preferred caliber, actually it would be gauge, a 12 guage shotgun, even thought it appears that it has stories of failure to one shot stop. But I sure wouldn't want to bet the odds on it.

[Dawn]

At what point are you in your education? Won't the department you would get hired at tell you what caliber or calibers you can use?

How come some of you guy's aren't answering his questions or offering suggestions. Bandit357 has 10 post and joined us last fall and seems to be a decent person just looking for help.

Dawn

[Paul]

At what point are you in your education? Won't the department you would get hired at tell you what caliber or calibers you can use?

How come some of you guy's aren't answering his questions or offering suggestions. Bandit357 has 10 post and joined us last fall and seems to be a decent person just looking for help.

Dawn

Already done by PM...

[cobb]

How come some of you guy's aren't answering his questions or offering suggestions. Bandit357 has 10 post and joined us last fall and seems to be a decent person just looking for help.

Dawn

I thought I was?

As mentioned, this topic has been beat to death and it is probably best to do some searches for studies and reports to get best information. I was told just last week by a student that an LEO friend of his had said that their department got away from the 9mm and went to the 40 S&W because there was a problem with the 9mm and over penetration. Now that is a new one.....

Me, I usually carry a 45 acp, with 200 grain Gold Dot +P, but sure wouldn't feel under gunned as far as handguns go, with a .357 magnum with premium ammunition. Of these complaints that like to blame the arrow, it is probably the indian that is the problem.

Preferred caliber, actually it would be gauge, a 12 guage shotgun, even thought it appears that it has stories of failure to one shot stop. But I sure wouldn't want to bet the odds on it.

Or am I just confused again?

[Dawn]

Cobb, your post came up as I was writing mine. I was referring to others above yours.
Dawn

[bandit357]

[quote="mmcnx2"]I know a guy....three rounds....

You should consider another career, maybe something that does not require you to carry a gun would be a better choice.

If god forbid you are serious, you should seek some help during the interview process and ask the department what they think is a bad-a** round. I'm sure they will be impressed by your concern.[/quot

Enlighten me on your criticism! You must be a psychologist, or maybe even an officer, I can't imagine using the word bad-a** dictates the type of person I am. So instead of being a downer maybe you should try to be a leader? I don't know maybe try to give some advice,maybe by saying "you might want to select your words differently?" I'm not sure what your comment is directed towards, but I have 100% confidence I will make a fine officer. Despite what critics like you say! But I do appreciate your input, made me learn something! Use your words wisely!!! Thanks!

[infidel]

I am sure whatever caliber your department authorizes will be sufficient.

[1911fan]

For probably 20 years, the 125 grain silver tip load had a terrific reputation as that "magic bullet" one shot stopper. It did have some issues with lack of penetration in some, but an overwhelming number of OIS's in that time frame were one shot, one stop. When the news media began to whine of about cops being "outgunned" by high cap nines, many police departments gave up a superior and time tested. 125 grain bullets at 1525 Fps were terrific stoppers, with a LOT of data to back it up. All of a sudden, it was considered an upgrade to go from 6 of those, to 9 or 10 112 grainers at 1260 was supposed "shame the living souls" of the criminals I guess.

[Seismic Sam]

Thank you Dawn. The conventional wisdom, supported by 75 years (1935-2010) of shooting bad guys, is that the 357 Magnum 125 grain JHP round running around 1450 FPS has a PROVEN track record of putting bad guys down and/or 6 feet under. History don't lie, nor does J. Edgar Hoover, or Elmer Keith, or tens of thousands of LEO's over the years. And the ULTIMATE proof of the pudding is the 357 SIG. It was expressly designed to duplicate the ballistics of the 357 Magnum with the 125 grain hollowpoint round. It's NOT a coincidence that the 357 SIG was created with the ballistics of the 357 magnum in a semi-auto that would allow 12 shots instead of 6. Also no coincidence that the 357 SIG is the weapon of choice in the air after 9/11.

So: History has already answered your question before you were born, and the modern day cartridges of the 357 SIG and the cultish 9x23 Winchester were developed to meet that benchmark. That doesn't mean that newer cartridges like the 10mm can't exceed those specifications and killing performance, but in the FBI's own experience the recoil of the 10mm was more than some agents could handle. (and I fart in their general direction, but that's just me who shoots every 50 caliber pistol round ever made. BTW, There are THREE, not two of those in existence!!)

SO: The stopping power of the 357 mag with 125 graing JHP's is proven effective. There's other semi-auto stuff out there today that can dwarf that performance, but that brings into question your recoil tolerance, and ammo availability, and price, and other stuff.

If I were you, and my ass was on the line as far as my job was concerned, I would look into an EAA Match in 38 Super, change the recoil spring to 22#, and run 9x23 Winchester with the 125 grain JHP's in it. Same 1450 FPS with the same HP bullet, but you get EIGHTEEN rounds in the gun, and the recoil is not bad at all, and the next mag has another 17 rounds, and the mag after that.

[bandit357]

Of course my instructor's taught us that it is the shooter not the round that matters in most cases. But when I heard about the fella I know getting shot three times with the .357 at a distance of five yards, I was amazed he survived. Many people would say that the .357 Mag. is a round that should be carried because of its effective stopping power and I always believed it. Not that I am knocking that round, I just wonder if that man is human or machine?

I appreciate your opionions, I am not by any means a professional when it comes to hand guns. I still have my .357 sig, but I am thinking about changing out the barrel and putting a model 23 barrel in it. Hopefully that works

An old timer I know that fought in the Korean War told me some stories about how uneffective their rifles were becuase the Koreans would rap them selves up so tight with fabric, the bullets would go through them and they would keep on coming. He said it kept all of their limbs intact, and the only way they could stop them was by using their .45 with a harball round. He said he sure put a lot more trust into his pistol.