Question about the permit to carry class!!!

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Question about the permit to carry class!!!

Postby bandit357 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:55 pm

So, I just took a permit to caryy class the other weekend, and my question is this. Last fall, I took 18 weeks of tactical firearm's training in my LE program, we covered all the MN laws justifying when you can take some ones life as a LE officer. Now the rules are slightley different from LE to a civilian, but not to far off. I feel the training we had were from professional officers and firearm instructors, and gave a great base for understanding situations we will be faced with in the field and a good understanding of the weapons we were shooting. "Which by the way was a Glock 9mm", we had to Qual. from 3 yards to 15 yards, with dominant and weak hand, off the ground, and every other way of shooting a handgun I can think of. Back to the question.

With 18 weeks training from a licesend firearm instructor/LE officer, how can legislation not allow us as students to be qualified to posses a permit to carry after completing the training, and while a certified NRA member can give a 6-8 hour class to some one that may have no idea about a gun, never have shot a gun, and more or less just briefly go over the laws involved in the responsibility and justifing of takings of some persons life? I was in surprised how easy it was to get that permit with what is required by law, and not being able to get the permit through all of the training I have from the LE program. I understand there are many sides to this and my intentions are not to piss any one off about the subject. I like to have other points of view thrown at me, I find it to help give me a better understanding of peoples views out there in the state.

By all means I am proud MN has allowed for the permit to carry to be issued to valid persons. but should the state should require more training? I am wondering about this only because it was way to easy to get through the class, and I know a lot of knuckle heads that could pass the class and background check and be able to posses a handgun, which I would not trust them to have in the sense they might feed the fire for anti-gun people. Does it have to do with money or something else. Can any one repectfully answer this question? Do people think this class should be easy or should it be more strict? I apoligize for spelling and grammer errors in the message, since so many people like to be critics on that, and I hope the question is clear! And I should realize that this question is something that many of you might want to straighten me out on, that's why I like this, wether it is good or bad, it allows me to look at things in ways I might not see, so have at it :D
Last edited by bandit357 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby MrVvrroomm on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:00 pm

One of the first things you will learn taking a Minnesota Permit to Carry class is that Minnesota makes no distinction between carry and conceal. To be legal you must have the permit, carrying openly or concealing.

Good on you for taking the training you did, but there is no way you're getting a MN Permit to Carry without taking the class.
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby Norsesmithy on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:03 pm

Self defense is a human right. Rigorous training standards would fall into the same category as literacy tests at polling stations. Sounds great, and it'd be nice if everyone could meet those standards, but not everyone would be able to pass, and it would be discriminatory and wrong to deny that right to people that can't.

Also states like Alaska and Vermont where you don't need a permit to carry to conceal a firearm haven't suffered any ill effect because of it, so there isn't any real evidence that more stringent training requirements would improve anything, and ultimately, that's the litmus test everything should have to pass.
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby Paul on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:03 pm

That's a touchy subject around here... But I think you will find most would disagree that their should not be more training required as it is a constitutional right.

And... They will also be quick to tell you that it is a permit to carry law, not a conceal and carry law. ;)
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby DeanC on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:05 pm

Personally I like the law in Vermont, Alaska and maybe soon Wyoming which requires no training at all. The somewhat hackneyed, yet still valid and operative phrase is: "What part of 'shall not be infringed' don't you understand?"
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby JoeH on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:08 pm

I believe that carrying a pistol for self-defense is a God-given right. Given that the State will have license requirements, the permit should be easy and inexpensive to obtain. I think that's a good thing.

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety,” wrote Benjamin Franklin. Keeping the "knuckleheads" from getting their P2C will hurt us all in the long run.
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby Paul on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:08 pm

Also, I have been told by a Sheriff's department here in the metro area that they willing accept your law enforcement training as long as the initial training was within the past year. I've never checked into it, so I don't know if that's standard, or a case by case decision per jurisdiction. Just a thought if you are inclined to check into it.
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby farmerj on Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:30 pm

go back to alex and look at the program you are in...Law Enforcement.

You are sticking a piece of tin on your chest that says, "I am here with power and control." There's a HUGE difference walking into a situation having the full force of the LE community, legal and court system standing behind you and what a normal citizen is doing.

The perspective there should be enough for you to think twice about demanding that a common person should go through the same rigors as someone who is about to become a peace officer, (my mistake) Law enforcement officer.

Castle Rock vs Gonzales made it clear enough that a person is responsible for their own protection and not a peace officer, (my mistake) Law enforcement. The constitution states it is our RIGHT to keep and bear arms that shall NOT be INFRINGED.

And requiring permits, training, checks and all infringe on that right. As it is, by the time you put the class ($100+), filing ($100), range qualification requirement ($50+). Most people are priced out of being able to afford the permit in their eyes. My permit cost me almost $400 by the time I put all the incidental costs together for me to get it.


BTW, It's not a Conceal and Carry Permit. It's a permit to carry. As a peace officer, (my mistake) Law enforcement officer you really should be clear on these facts. You life and the lives of the people you come across are seriously going to depend on that clarity.


(edited for clarity and grammar)
Last edited by farmerj on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about the permit to carry class!!!

Postby thunderoussilence on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:01 pm

Very well said FarmerJ
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Re: Question about the permit to carry class!!!

Postby bandit357 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:09 pm

Good point FamerJ!
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby plblark on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:11 pm

farmerj wrote:You are sticking a piece of tin on your chest that says I am here with power and control. There's a HUGE difference walking into a situation having the full force of the LE community, legal and court system standing behind you and what a normal citizen is doing.


That lack of a safety net is a calming influence all in itself. look at the topics covered, the risks, consequences, and responsibility presented in class. That's also a reality check.

The biggest reality checkis behavior though.

We KNOW that in MN the carry permit holder is many times LESS likely to commit any serious crime than the average populace. We can get that from the BCA reports and Crime stats per population.

We also know that MN is not unique. TX, FL, UT also show the same thing.

Actually, PA, VT, IN show the same effect with NO classes or shooting qualification required.
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Re: Question about the Conceal and Carry Class!!!

Postby jgalt on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:18 pm

plblark wrote:
farmerj wrote:You are sticking a piece of tin on your chest that says I am here with power and control. There's a HUGE difference walking into a situation having the full force of the LE community, legal and court system standing behind you and what a normal citizen is doing.


That lack of a safety net is a calming influence all in itself. look at the topics covered, the risks, consequences, and responsibility presented in class. That's also a reality check.

The biggest reality checkis behavior though.

We KNOW that in MN the carry permit holder is many times LESS likely to commit any serious crime than the average populace. We can get that from the BCA reports and Crime stats per population.

We also know that MN is not unique. TX, FL, UT also show the same thing.

Actually, PA, VT, IN show the same effect with NO classes or shooting qualification required.


Add Mississippi to that list...
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Re: Question about the permit to carry class!!!

Postby farmerj on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:29 pm

Bandit,

I noticed you went back and changed the original title from conceal and Carry to Permit to carry...Kudo's.... ;)
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Re: Question about the permit to carry class!!!

Postby justaguy on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:43 pm

If you are going to be a cop why did you pay for a class?
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Re: Question about the permit to carry class!!!

Postby bandit357 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:03 pm

because I'm not sure how long it will be before I get a job, and it's another person to put on the tally for going through permit class and supporting the 2nd amendment
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