More more guns, less crime

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More more guns, less crime

Postby nyffman on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:38 am

I know this is preaching to the choir, but for the benfit of those who don't keep up with
http://www.calgunlaws.com
Written by Don B. Kates
Tuesday, 10 August 2010 00:00
[The following is from an article that Carlyle Moody and I are writing on the theory that more guns in a society will cause more crime. This part of the article was written by Prof. Moody an economist at William & Mary College.]

If more guns cause murder, and more guns cause more murder, it would seem societies with no guns at all should be the safest possible states. There are few gun free societies in the world today. However, if we look back in history to the time before the invention of firearms, we can judge for ourselves whether those societies were tranquil and safe. Remarkably good homicide data is available for England, beginning in the 1200’s. Those data indicate a pre-gun homicide rate in England of roughly 20 per 100,000 [roughly four times greater than the U.S. today]

Firearms were introduced into England in the 1400’s and were in wide use by the 1500’s, coincident with a decline in the homicide rate to 15 per 100K. However these early guns were predominately of the matchlock design. This design featured a slow burning fuse held in a clamp at the end of a serpentine lever. When the trigger was pulled the clamp dropped down so that the end of the lit fuse touched the powder in the flash pan, firing the weapon. The design was simple and the weapons relatively inexpensive. The major problem with the design from the point of view of personal defense was that, because of the need for a lit fuse, the weapon could not be kept and carried loaded and primed for quick use against a sudden attack.

The first firearm that could be carried loaded and primed was the flintlock, introduced into England around 1630. In this design the fuse is replaced by a piece of flint. When the trigger is pulled the flint strikes a piece of steel producing a shower of sparks that ignite the powder in the flash pan. This technology persisted through the early 1800’s. While matchlocks were almost exclusively long guns, flintlock technology was readily adapted to produce handguns, which were particularly useful for self defense. The flintlock pistol was relatively inexpensive, could be comfortably carried, was ready for action in an instant, and did not require a great deal of physical strength or expertise to operate. The flintlock could be fired in an instant, making it the ideal self- defense weapon. Armed with a flintlock, the physically weak found themselves on an equal footing with the physically strong in a confrontation.

The introduction of the flintlock coincided with the largest decline in homicide in English history. The homicide rate plunged to 6 per 100K in the 1600’s. The English homicide rate continued to decline slowly and steadily until well into the 20th century. For example, in 1900 the homicide rate was 0.96 per 100K.

The last hundred years of English history tells the reverse story. The first modern gun law in England was the Pistols Act of 1903 which required Englishmen to purchase a permit in order to acquire a firearm. Since 1920, the English government’s policy has been ever more restrictive. The Firearms Control Act of 1920 imposed a true permit requirement to possess rifles as well as all types of pistols and empowered local authorities to determine if the applicant would be allowed to purchase arms. This permit requirement was administered progressively more stringently and was amended to increase restrictions over time in an attempt to reduce the civilian gun stock. The Prevention of Crime Act of 1953 and the Criminal Law Act of 1967 redefined the right to self defense more restrictively making any act of self defense potentially criminal. The Firearms Acts of 1968 and 1998 brought shotguns under strict regulation; the Firearm Act of 1997 effectively banned the private ownership of handguns and provided for the confiscation of all legally owned handguns.

According to the more guns more crime hypothesis, all this restriction of civilian guns should have resulted in England enjoying lower and lower rates of violent crime. Unfortunately, the facts reveal a pattern that is almost opposite. [as of 2000 England had twice the violent crime rate of the U.S.]
our quarrel is not about the value of freedom per se, but stems from our opinion of our fellow men … a man’s admiration of absolute government is proportionate to the contempt he feels for those around him --Alexis de Tocqueville--
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Re: More more guns, less crime

Postby whiteox on Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:06 pm

I found a murder rate for the U.K. that was about 1.5 per 100,000 for most of the 2000s. I like the history of the gun in England. I didn't like the switch from quoting the homicide rate to the violent crime rate. I think John Lott made a more compelling argument.
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Re: More more guns, less crime

Postby jgalt on Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:19 pm

**** statistics. Am I somehow endangering anyone by hanging a gun on my hip daily? If not, then all the statistics & arguments about some collectivist "greater good" are horse-****, and have nothing to do with me & my fundamental / natural / God-given (take your pick) absolute right to defend myself against any aggressor. If yes, then restrict or punish me, not everyone else...

Why is this so incredibly hard for such a large number of people to understand?
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Re: More more guns, less crime

Postby GregM on Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:34 am

My theory is that gun control proponents know that new laws won't bring crime rates down. They just use that argument because it makes more sense than what they're truly afraid of: the quiet, law abiding citizen who flips out one day and goes on a murder spree. Consider the fact that the typical gangbanger killing usually gets one day's news coverage, and then it's forgotten. The story that is rehashed day after day involves the shooter that everyone thought was a really nice guy but then he went berserk and he already had a gun and, well, we all know how it ends.

Gun control advocates probably accept street crime as a fact of life. What they really want is to keep guns away from their relatives, friends, and neighbors.
FLEE IF YOU CAN. FIGHT IF YOU MUST.
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Re: More more guns, less crime

Postby Pat Cannon on Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:43 pm

jgalt wrote:Am I somehow endangering anyone by hanging a gun on my hip daily? If not, then all the statistics & arguments about some collectivist "greater good" are horse-****, and have nothing to do with me & my fundamental / natural / God-given (take your pick) absolute right to defend myself against any aggressor.

I agree -- except I think you qualify your assertion of our rights too much. I say, even if Joe Citizen the non-predator is, statistically, increasing the risk of violence to himself and everyone else by going armed, it's the right thing to do, because the violence is distributed more justly. That is, it makes it significantly more hazardous to be a violent criminal, so by me it's OK if it makes it a tiny bit more hazardous to be anybody.

The fact that it apparently turns out not to actually increase the total risk of violence, is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: More more guns, less crime

Postby jgalt on Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:18 pm

Pat Cannon wrote:
jgalt wrote:Am I somehow endangering anyone by hanging a gun on my hip daily? If not, then all the statistics & arguments about some collectivist "greater good" are horse-****, and have nothing to do with me & my fundamental / natural / God-given (take your pick) absolute right to defend myself against any aggressor.

I agree -- except I think you qualify your assertion of our rights too much. I say, even if Joe Citizen the non-predator is, statistically, increasing the risk of violence to himself and everyone else by going armed, it's the right thing to do, because the violence is distributed more justly. That is, it makes it significantly more hazardous to be a violent criminal, so by me it's OK if it makes it a tiny bit more hazardous to be anybody.

The fact that it apparently turns out not to actually increase the total risk of violence, is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.


I actually agree with you 110%...

I should have been more clear in my statement - I maintain that I am not in fact endangering anyone by the simple act of hanging a gun on my hip. I can make this statement because by "endanger" I am referring to the set of people that is not trying to do me or my loved ones physical harm. I cannot "endanger" someone who has already put him or herself into a dangerous situation, which is what someone attacking me has done...

I guess, to be fair, it would be technically correct to say that I am "endangering" anyone who might be around should I ever need to use my firearm, but again, I don't see myself as the one putting 'innocent bystanders' in harms way. Rather that is the result / fault of the person who is doing the attacking. Were there no attacker, the gun would never leave it's holster, would remain an inert hunk of non-offensive materials, and would be no danger to anyone...

One last note - since the entire concept of "group" rights is bunk, any discussion of rights by definition involves only individual rights. My right of self-defense is absolute, as is yours, as is every individual's. Up until the moment in which I become an aggressor, it doesn't matter if I am carrying 100 lbs of guns, ammo, knives & grenades or if I am buck naked - I have done nothing to harm or intimidate anyone, and no one has any moral authority to control what I do, what I wear, or what I carry to protect myself. I of course recognize that many have the legal authority to complain &/or arrest me for doing so, but I recognize no moral authority for them to do me.

My demand is to be left alone, i.e. free from the use or threat of force or coercion. If each individual can manage to do that, then they have absolutely nothing to fear from me in any way, at any time, and no individual has any cause to care whether or not I am carrying a gun on me at any time.

Or is that still qualifying things too much for ya'...? 8-)
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Re: More more guns, less crime

Postby Pat Cannon on Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:49 pm

jgalt wrote:
Pat Cannon wrote:
jgalt wrote:...The fact that it apparently turns out not to actually increase the total risk of violence, is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.


I actually agree with you 110%...

I should have been more clear in my statement - I maintain that I am not in fact endangering anyone by the simple act of hanging a gun on my hip. I can make this statement because by "endanger" I am referring to the set of people that is not trying to do me or my loved ones physical harm. I cannot "endanger" someone who has already put him or herself into a dangerous situation, which is what someone attacking me has done...

I guess, to be fair, it would be technically correct to say that I am "endangering" anyone who might be around should I ever need to use my firearm, but again, I don't see myself as the one putting 'innocent bystanders' in harms way. Rather that is the result / fault of the person who is doing the attacking. Were there no attacker, the gun would never leave it's holster, would remain an inert hunk of non-offensive materials, and would be no danger to anyone...
...
Or is that still qualifying things too much for ya'...? 8-)

It is! You still insist on asserting that you're not a danger to the innocent. My point is that you're a force for good EVEN IF you're a small danger to the innocent. How dare you claim to agree with me 110% when you are actually only agreeing with me 99.99? This makes us look bad.
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Re: More more guns, less crime

Postby jgalt on Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:22 pm

Pat Cannon wrote:It is! You still insist on asserting that you're not a danger to the innocent. My point is that you're a force for good EVEN IF you're a small danger to the innocent.


See, I assert that until someone initiates the aggressive use of force against me - and that is the key part - that I am not, in fact or in theory (the two being the same in this case...), a danger to anyone, innocent or otherwise. And, once someone else does initiate the aggressive use of force against me, they are the cause of the danger in which innocent bystanders may find themselves once I begin to defend myself.

I fully accept that this distinction would be cold comfort to the friends & family of some bystander injured or killed by a bullet fired by me in self defense, and I would do everything possible - short of failing to defend myself as aggressively as necessary to stop the threat - to minimize that possibility, including trying my darnedest to run away. To do otherwise would be to accept the idea that my life is worth less than an innocent bystander's, simply because I was attacked...

Pat Cannon wrote:How dare you claim to agree with me 110% when you are actually only agreeing with me 99.99? This makes us look bad.


Fair 'nuff... :lol:
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Re: More more guns, less crime

Postby John S. on Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:45 pm

Funny aint it how all those people in Chicago gettin killed by guns, when you know and I know it's complete BS. Guns are NOT allowed in the great septic tank called Chicago, can't die by a gun there! :roll:
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