25th Anniversary of the Miami Shootout coming up

[Drizzle]

April 11. 1986. Lots of places to read about it online. It was analyzed in depth by investigators and forensic technicians. Any opinions, ideas, thoughts?

[xd ED]

As I recall, that incident was the catalyst for the development of the .40 S & W, as well as re-thinking, and re-equipping of many, if not most LE agencies.

ETA- Wikipedia has a detailed write up of the event:1986 FBI Miami shootout

[rtk]

Some lessons are learned the hard way.

[macphisto]

As I recall, that incident was the catalyst for the development of the .40 S & W

By way of 10mm Auto, which was selected first by the FBI.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

[Tommy Gun]

On ProArms podcast episode #065, Massad Ayoob interviews John Hanlon, one of the FBI agents wounded in the Miami shootout. I thought it was a very interesting interview of someone who was there.

[xd ED]

As I recall, that incident was the catalyst for the development of the .40 S & W

By way of 10mm Auto, which was selected first by the FBI.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

Was the 10mm ever put into FBI service? It was a few years after this incident that I started getting interested in handguns, and the various gun mags, I recall reading after the selection process that many agents( some say women) could not handle the recoil of the 10mm, thus the 40 S&W. I believe the whole selection process got called into question: the validity of ballistic gel, the 9mm vs 45acp, more training and/ or more powerful guns.

[rugersol]

The '80's ... of all decades ... was a remarkable time for handgunning ... no question.

Not sure exactly when cops began training the "weaver" stance (two-handed, shoulders mostly squared, no matter what ya call it ) ... coulda been before, I 'spose. Also not sure when IPSC was founded by Jeff Cooper ... 'round then, anyhow.

Jeez, I almost fergot 'bout revolvers ... when'd the cops give them up? ... couldn't been much 'fore the '80's. And the 1911 was replaced by the Beretta 92. Did Sig make their P226 new, for those trials? S&W practically cornered the cop market with the 5906.

'Fore the .40sw, ya had 9mm at 'bout 130pf ... and .45acp at 'bout 190pf ... and .40sw brought about a 175pf option, in guns sized similarly to 9mm, holding 12rd - 15rd. Not sure if the .40sw quite made the '80's ... not too long after, though.

Glock probly benefited from this more 'n anyone ... right place, right time. Regardless, the '80's brought us the polymer pistol, and S&W, Springfield, and Ruger've been trying to catch up, ever since.

The whole werks, a "perfect storm" ... of sorts.

Only thing I see different today, is a lot more folks takin' hard looks at the 1911. Still, the plastic guns don't give much sign of givin' up, anytime soon.

Hmmm ... amazing time!

I wonder if 30yr from now, someone will reflect on how Zumbo/Osama teamed up to bring us the great AR Explosion of the late '00's?

[rugersol]

I started listening to the podcast (Thanks, BTW!) ... I got to where the FBI guy started talking about where he was born, and had to tuck the kids in ... when I got back, it was still going, but there was no sound ... F'd with it a while ... nothing. Anyhow, listening to Ayoob set it up was purdy good. They talked about the movie ... and how it was nothing like the real thing ... fer one thing, IIRC, they said the one guy had a Mini 14 ... regardless, it was semi-auto ... but in the movie, they make it out like it was full-auto.

Here's the clip from the movie ...


Interesting how when the FBI guys take one 'er two hits, they're either dead, 'er jest as well ... yet David Soul takes no less than 20 hits, and he's still ready to drive away.

All in all, not bad shooting for one-handed ... and point-shooting, at that!

[Drizzle]

I remember reading a couple of other points. Keep your service weapon in the holster until you draw it. One of the guys had taken his Smith auto out and set it on the seat next to him, and the crash of the vehicle takedown sent it somewhere south of the gas pedal, and he was left with a two inch .38 instead of the possibly more effective 9mm semi auto. Also, if you're a great shot with glasses on, wear a strap to keep them from flying off in a crash. Grogan was acknowledged as the best shot in the field office, but when his glasses went bye-bye in the initial crash to block in the suspects, he was ineffective and his lack of clear sight probably contributed to his death.

God bless Ed Mireles. What a warrior.

[tman]

I haven't listened to the the podcast, and I'm going on memory here.

IIRC, the two badguys were both ex-army and fought as trained. They ADVANCED under fire instead of taking cover, to overcome the FBI "ambush". It was a real **** sandwich for the FEEBS.

This a perfect example of "a mortally wounded badguy can still kill you."

[xd ED]

I haven't listened to the the podcast, and I'm going on memory here.

IIRC, the two badguys were both ex-army and fought as trained. They ADVANCED under fire instead of taking cover, to overcome the FBI "ambush". It was a real **** sandwich for the FEEBS.

This a perfect example of "a mortally wounded badguy can still kill you."

I just read up a bit about this. The advanced military training and experience caught my attention; one was an Army Ranger, the other a Marine, who later re-enlisted in the Army, where the met. Given the time of their military service, both were likely combat veterans. They appear to have been very violent all through their criminal history; ambushing guys who were out target shooting, stealing their guns and cars.
The FBI was out gunned going in, then lost at least 2 weapons, and were up against two highly trained, well armed bad guys.
I've caught about 2/3 of the podcast. It's long; about 1.5 hrs, but quite a story.

[Erik_Pakieser]

Was the 10mm ever put into FBI service? It was a few years after this incident that I started getting interested in handguns, and the various gun mags, I recall reading after the selection process that many agents( some say women) could not handle the recoil of the 10mm, thus the 40 S&W. I believe the whole selection process got called into question: the validity of ballistic gel, the 9mm vs 45acp, more training and/ or more powerful guns.

I wrote a thesis on police firearms training when I was in college. I was able to interview some local FBI agents who were involved in this case and the FBI firearms training program.

The FBI had a contract with S&W for 10mm pistols. The first batch of them was unsatisfactory. Recoil and reliability were the main concerns. After going back and forth several times, Smith & Wesson developed the 1076 (double action with decocker, no safety, no magazine disconect) for the FBI to finally satisfy the contract. The FBI-issued 1076s were individually tuned by the S&W gunsmiths (what is now the S&W Performance Center). S&W ultimately took a loss on the contract.

The 1076s were issued for about five years starting around 1990. Many FBI agents never saw them. For a while, I remember you could find them for sale, before Clinton banned the USGov from selling surplus guns to citizens.

[bstrawse]

Just came from a conference with lots of Bureau folks - most of them were toting Glock 27s... New agents are being issued midsize Glocks..

B

[heavy metal daze]

Someone should start another 9mm vs .40/.45 thread in honor of this!

[Hammer99...]

Someone should start another 9mm vs .40/.45 thread in honor of this!

if you wanted to honor the tragic event you need to start the 10mm debate.