Mixing cleaning products

Gun related chat that doesn't fit in another forum

Mixing cleaning products

Postby rucker on Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:37 pm

I read this on Savage's website:
It is also advisable to use a powder solvent and copper solvent from the same manufacturer to be sure they are chemically compatible.


This made me wonder: is it important to be consistent in what you use to clean/lubricate your firearms? I have quite a collection of CLP, Rem-Oil, Brite-Bore, Rem Dri-Lube, Beretta Oil, Hoppes #9, Hoppes copper solvent, and some other brand of powder solvent. I use pretty much whatever combination I happen to pull out of the box. ( maybe I shouldn't have admitted this :lol: )

Unless you are using something like Militec-1 does consistency make any difference?
rucker
 
Posts: 1848 [View]
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:51 pm

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby rtk on Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:46 pm

I am glad to see that you are finally into cleaning :lol:

rtk
The sky is falling, the sky is falling....(Chicken Little)
User avatar
rtk
 
Posts: 3097 [View]
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:34 pm

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby rucker on Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:52 pm

rtk wrote:I am glad to see that you are finally into cleaning :lol:

rtk


:lol: I will never forget to clean the magwell again :lol:
rucker
 
Posts: 1848 [View]
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:51 pm

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby Fast351 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:39 am

I've never considered it, but I guess it makes a little sense.

I personally use 725 for carbon removal, general cleaning, Hoppes #9 for pistols, and Slip 2000 for oil, and Sweets 762 for copper removal.

My guess is the oils and Hoppes #9 are mostly compatible, and the others should be completely removed after use anyway.
Fast351
 
Posts: 548 [View]
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:28 pm

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby Einthoven's Triangle on Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:39 am

Well, you know many products contain ammonia. And, well you know mixing stuff like sometimes people do with home cleaning agent can creat a bad situation ie mixing bleach and ammonia products! Gotta becareful!

I like Slip 2000 for cleaning stuff, I like the Slip Carbon Cutter, and I like Militech, too.

I shoot moly coated bullets in a few 223 rifles so they get a different protocol.

My custom 308 gets another protocol, but that cleans like a dream.....

Follow the directions CR10 and Sweets 7.62 are two of the most powerful copper solvents out there.... be careful.
User avatar
Einthoven's Triangle
 
Posts: 687 [View]
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:28 am

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby chunkstyle on Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:17 pm

I mix my own, quite a bit.

Your basic Ed's Red is kerosene, auto transmission fluid, and mineral spirits, in equal proportion.

I often substitute Hoppe's for the kerosene. Sometimes I add Kroil and/or 3-in-1 oil, for more residual lubrication.
"In his library at Simi Valley, dead Reagan waits dreaming"
User avatar
chunkstyle
 
Posts: 1256 [View]
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:38 am
Location: St Paul

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby David on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:52 am

I've been using Ed's Red since the 90s when I mixed my first gallon for less than $6 in materials. That gallon is still in use, although I need to admit that I took a few years off from shooting. I think it works as well as any cleaner I've tried, and you can't beat the price.

I don't rely on the Ed's Red for lubrication, though. I wipe it pretty clean, and then follow up with a very small amount of either lithium grease or Militech, depending upon the application.
User avatar
David
 
Posts: 2391 [View]
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:35 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby cobb on Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:24 pm

David Slam wrote:I've been using Ed's Red since the 90s when I mixed my first gallon for less than $6 in materials........I think it works as well as any cleaner I've tried, and you can't beat the price.

Is there any way to know if that is the same as the stuff Brownells sells? Yes, I know, a lot more spendy from Brownells, but for testing to decide if it is worth mixing up a quart or so.
“Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result”. - Winston Churchill

RIVER VALLEY TRAINING
MN. DPS/BCA approved training organization.

http://www.RiverValleyTraining.com
User avatar
cobb
Moderator
 
Posts: 6643 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:47 am
Location: Mankato area, not in city limits

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby BRIT_in_the_weeds on Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:23 pm

This is Ed Harris' most recent version of his recipe for Ed's Red, a DIY bore cleaner and gun lubricant. It's also good for use of bicycle chains and other household items. Since I tried this I've switched almost entirely to it for use on my modern guns.

Dave Markowitz


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BBS: AirPower BBS

Date: Sat, 01-10-98 (19:26) Number: 7969 Refer: 0

To: ALL

From: ED HARRIS

Subj: Ed's Red Revisited

Conf: FIREARMS (286) Read: No Status: Public

"Ed's Red" - - Revisited

By C.E., "Ed" Harris

Since I mixed my first "Ed's Red" (ER) bore cleaner five years ago, hundreds of users have told me that they find it as effective as commercial products. This cleaner has an action similar to military rifle bore cleaner, such as Mil-C-372B. Itaner, such as Mil-C-372B. It is highly effective for removing plastic fouling from shotgun bores, caked carbon inn semi-automatic rifles or pistols, or leading in revolvers. "ER" is not a "decoppering" solution for fast removal of heavy jacket fouling, but because is more effective in removal of caked carbon and primer residues than most other cleaners, so metal fouling is reduced when "ER" is used.

I researched the subject rather thoroughly and determined there was no technical reason why an effective firearm bore cleaner couldn't be mixed using common hardware store ingredients. The resulting cleaner is safe, effective, inexpensive, provides excellent corrosion protection and adequate residual lubrication. Routine oiling after cleaning is unnecessary except for storage exceeding 1 year, or in harsh environments, such as salt air exposure.

The formula is adapted from Hatcher's "Frankford Arsenal Cleaner No.18," but substitutes equivalent modern materials. Hatcher's recipe called for equal parts of acetone, turpentine, Pratts Astral Oil and sperm oil, and (optionally) 200 grams of anhydrous lanolin per liter into the cleaner.

Some discussion of the ingredients in ER is helpful to understand the properties of the cleaner and how it works. Pratts Astral Oil was nothing more than acidg more than acid free, deodorized kerosene. Today you would ask for "K1" kerosene of the type sold for use in indoor space heaters.

An inexpensive, effective substitute for sperm oil is Dexron III automatic transmission fluid. Prior to 1950 most ATF's were sperm oil based. During WWII sperm oil was mostly unavailable, so highly refined, dewaxed hydrofinished petroleum oils were developed, which had excellent thermal stability. When antioxidants were added to prevent gumming these worked well in precision instruments.

With the high demand for automatic transmission autos after WWII, sperm oil was no longer practical to produce ATFs in the needed quantities needed, so the wartime expedients were mass produced. ATFs have been continually improved over the years. The additives contained in Dexron include detergents or other surfactants which are highly suitable for inclusion in an all-purpose cleaner, lubricant and preservative.

Hatcher's Frankford Arsenal No. 18 used gum spirits of turpentine, but turpentine is both expensive and also highly flammable, so I chose not to use it. Much safer and more inexpensive are "aliphatic mineral spirits," which are an open-chain organic solvent, rather than the closed-chain, benzene ring structure, commontructure, common to "aromatics," such as naptha or "lighter fluid." Sometimes called "safety solvent," aliphatic mineral spirits are used for thinning oil based paint, as automotive parts cleaner and is commonly sold under the names "odorless mineral spirits," "Stoddard Solvent" or "Varsol".

Acetone is included to provide an aggressive, fast-acting solvent for caked smokeless powder residues. Because acetone readily evaporates and the fumes are harmful in high concentrations, it is recommended that it be left out if the cleaner will be used indoors, in soak tanks or in enclosed spaces lacking forced air ventilation. Containers should be kept tightly closed when not in use. ER is still effective without acetone, but not as "fast-acting."

"Ed's Red" does not chemically dissolve copper fouling in rifle bores, but it does a better job of removing carbon and primer residue than most other cleaners. Many users have told me, that frequent and exclusive use of "ER" reduces copper deposits, because it removes the old impacted powder fouling left behind by other cleaners. This reduces the abrasion and adhesion of jacket metal to the bore, leaving a cleaner surface condition which reduces subsequent fouling. Experience indicatesrience indicates that "ER" will actually remove metal fouling in bores if it is left to "soak," for a few days so the surfactants will do the job, when followed by a repeat cleaning. You simply have to be patient.

Addition of lanolin to ER is optional, because the cleaner works perfectly well and gives adequate corrosion protection and lubrication without it. Inclusion of lanolin makes the cleaner easier on the hands, increases its lubricity and film strength and improves corrosion protection if firearms, tools or equipment will be routinely exposed to salt air, water spray, or corrosive urban atmospheres.

I recommend the lanolin included if you intend to use the cleaner as a protectant for long term storage or for a "flush" after water cleaning of black powder firearms or those fired with military chlorate primers. This is because lanolin has a great affinity for water and readily emulsifies so that the bore can be wiped of residual moisture, leaving a protective film. If you inspect your guns and wipe them down twice yearly, you can leave out the lanolin and save about $10 per gallon.

At current retail prices you can buy all the ingredients to mix ER, without the lanolin for about $12 per gallon. I urge you to mix some yourself. I ame yourself. I am confident it will work as well for you as it does for me and hundreds of users who got the "recipe" on the Fidonet Firearms Echo.

CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner

1 part Dexron ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.

1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1

1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits

CAS #64741-49-9, or substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or equivalent.

1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.

(Optional 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon, or OK to substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store)

MIXING INSTRUCTIONS:

Mix outdoors, in good ventilation. Use a clean 1 gallon metal, chemical-resistant, heavy gage PET or PVC plastic container. NFPA approved plastic gasoline storage containers are OK. Do NOT use HDPE, which is permeable, because the acetone will slowly evaporate. Acetone in ER will attack HDPE over time, causing the container to collapse, making a heck of a mess!

Add the ATF first. Use the empty container to measure the otherainer to measure the other components, so that it is thoroughly rinsed. If you incorporate the lanolin into the mixture, melt this carefully in a double boiler, taking precautions against fire. Pour the melted lanolin it into a larger container, rinsing the lanolin container with the bore cleaner mix, and stirring until it is all dissolved. I recommend diverting up to 4 ozs. per quart of the 50-50 ATF/kerosene mix to use as "ER-compatible" gun oil. This can be done without impairing the effectiveness of the remaining mix. Label and safety warnings follow:

FIREARM BORE CLEANER

CAUTION: FLAMMABLE MIXTURE -- HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED -- KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN

Contents: petroleum distillates, surfactants, organometallic antioxidants and acetone.

1. Flammable mixture, keep away from heat, sparks or flame.

2. FIRST AID, If swallowed DO NOT induce vomiting, call physician immediately. In case of eye contact immediately flush thoroughly with water and call a physician. For skin contact wash thoroughly.

3. Use with adequate ventilation. Avoid breathing vapors or spray mist. It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with itsonsistent with its labeling. Reports have associated repeated and prolonged occupational overexposure to solvents with permanent brain and nervous system damage. If using in closed armory vaults lacking forced air ventilation wear respiratory protection meeting NIOSH TC23C or equivalent. Keep container tightly closed when not in use.

INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE:

1. Open the firearm action and ensure the bore is clear. Cleaning is most effective when done while the barrel is still warm from firing. Saturate a cotton patch with bore cleaner, wrap or impale on jag and push it through the bore from breech to muzzle. The patch should be a snug fit. Let the first patch fall off and do not pull it back into the bore.

2. Wet a second patch, and similarly start it into the bore from the breech, this time scrubbing from the throat area forward in 4-5" strokes and gradually advancing until the patch emerges out the muzzle. Waiting approximately 1 minute to let the bore cleaner soak will improve its action.

3. For pitted, heavily carbon-fouled service rifles, leaded revolvers or neglected bores a bronze brush wet with bore cleaner may be used to remove stubborn deposits. This is unnecessary for smooth, target-grade barrels in routine use.

routine use.

4. Use a final wet patch pushed straight through the bore to flush out loosened residue dissolved by Ed's Red. Let the patch fall off the jag without pulling it back into the bore. If you are finished firing, leaving the bore wet will protect it from rust for 1 year under average atmospheric conditions.

5. If lanolin is incorporated into the mixture, it will protect the firearm from rust for up to two years, even in a humid environment. (For longer storage use Lee Liquid Alox or Cosmolene). "ER" will readily remove hardened Alox or Cosmolene.

6. Wipe spilled Ed's Red from exterior surfaces before storing the gun. While Ed's Red is harmless to blue and nickel finishes, the acetone it contains is harmful to most wood finishes.

7. Before firing again, push two dry patches through the bore and dry the chamber, using a patch wrapped around a suitably sized brush or jag. First shot point of impact usually will not be disturbed by Ed's Red if the bore is cleaned as described.

8. I have determined to my satisfaction that when Ed's Red is used exclusively and thoroughly, that hot water cleaning is unnecessary after use of Pyrodex or military chlorate primers. However, if bores are not wiped between shots and shots and areand shots and are heavily caked from black powder fouling, hot water cleaning is recommended first to break up heavy fouling deposits. Water cleaning should be followed by a flush with Ed's Red to prevent after-rusting which could result from residual moisture. It is ALWAYS good practice to clean TWICE, TWO DAYS APART whenever using chlorate primed ammunition, just to make sure you get all the corrosive residue out.

This "Recipe" has been placed in the public domain, and may be freely distributed provided that it is done so in its entirely with all current revisions, instructions and safety warnings included herein, and that proper attribution is given to the author.

Reply To: ed_harris@p3006.F120.n109.z1.fidonet.org

--- msged 2.05

* Origin: Home of Ed's Red (1:109/120.3006)


The linky.........http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmj ... ds_red.htm
or..................http://social.boards.ie/blog/double-bar ... re-cleaner
Far better it is to dare mighty things...than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat
T.Roosevelt 1899

Just me and the designated settee, in the weeds.8-)
Thread-F.U master Brit Pei Ying
1/ICC ;-) .1/ICC II.;-)
User avatar
BRIT_in_the_weeds
 
Posts: 1858 [View]
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:09 am

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby chunkstyle on Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:04 pm

Word to the wise:

Don't put in acetone. Eats polymers, ruins wood finishes. Works just as good without.

Stoddard solvent = Coleman fuel. But in a pinch, unleaded gasoline would do.

You can use diesel for kerosene, too. Hoppe's is part kerosene, so I often substitute some of it in.

I store mine in Mason jars.
"In his library at Simi Valley, dead Reagan waits dreaming"
User avatar
chunkstyle
 
Posts: 1256 [View]
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:38 am
Location: St Paul

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby David on Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:13 pm

I agree. I skipped the acetone and the optional lanolin.

Oh, and Cobb, I'm not sure what Brownell's sells, but I just checked and it looks like they post the Material Safety Data Sheets for many of their products online. You might have to do some translating, but that document will list the ingredients, and then you can compare. Just do a search for the product name and "MSDS" on Google. If they don't post it, you can call them and have them fax or e-mail it to you. By law they are required to give MSDSes to people who ask for it, or refer you to the manufacturer who makes it for them.
User avatar
David
 
Posts: 2391 [View]
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:35 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby JoeH on Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:12 pm

chunkstyle wrote:Word to the wise:

Don't put in acetone. Eats polymers, ruins wood finishes. Works just as good without.

Stoddard solvent = Coleman fuel. But in a pinch, unleaded gasoline would do.

You can use diesel for kerosene, too. Hoppe's is part kerosene, so I often substitute some of it in.

I store mine in Mason jars.


But how does it taste?

Seriously, I've been tempted to mix up some of this stuff for a long time.

I use Militec for lube. However, I've been told that Amsoil Syn works just fine. Buy a quart and you're good for a long time.
Joe
Not a Glock Certified Armorer
User avatar
JoeH
 
Posts: 3687 [View]
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:56 am
Location: 1911 JMB Drive

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby hammAR on Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:30 pm

Works great, Tastes better than Aqua Velva...........

I mistakenly mixed up several gallons about ten years ago, still have several gallons left.............I think that if left to it's own devices it procreates or something..............

I basically only use that and Militec. This works good as a cleaning solvent. Use in a well ventilated area, away from combustion source. In other words common sense. If you're shooting corrosive ammo in a non-chrome bore, it's a good idea to run a patch with something containing ammonia (e.g., Windex) through the bore to neutralize the salts. (Of course, lately I've gotten a little hooked on the foaming bore cleaner.......)

This will not replace Hoppes #9, or Sweets, or 7.62, but is will clean most of the crud on a daily basis. Then use your specialty cleaner for lead/copper fouling.once/twice a year ..............May not be a good idea to spill it on your white levis either.
All men are created equal....It's what they do from there that matters!.
User avatar
hammAR
 
Posts: 11591 [View]
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:31 pm
Location: Cultural Liaison....

Re: Mixing cleaning products

Postby chunkstyle on Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:39 am

I make a couple quarts at a time. Like I said, in Mason jars. This gives enough room for a 4" barrel to be taken out of a handgun, and put in to soak, with a small pair of tongs to retrieve it. Wipe down the outside with a shop rag, inside, a few back-and-forths with a nylon brush, then a patch or mop to dry. Barrel's clean as a whistle.
"In his library at Simi Valley, dead Reagan waits dreaming"
User avatar
chunkstyle
 
Posts: 1256 [View]
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:38 am
Location: St Paul


Return to General Gun Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron