valleyfair situation / good or bad shoot

[EastSideRich]

Hi guys, I haven't posted for quite a while here but thought I'd give it another shot.

Regarding the situation at valleyfair (beating/stomping), as a bystander how would you have reacted?
Would that be a justifiable shooting?
How about with the "gun ban" that they have; would that make it a different situation? (assume you are carrying, regardless of their sign)

In a perfect world, it's a no-brainer, but as there were no weapons involved, and the fact guns are prohibited there, I'm just curious as to what some who probably know the wording/meaning of the law better than myself think.
(edit: yes, in a perfect world, there would be no people like this in the first place, but you know what I mean.)

In this situation obviously this guy had great bodily harm done, and easily could have died there at the scene, I would think this would be absolutely a good shoot.

I know there is a thread going on about the incident, but I didn't want to hijack it.

[princewally]

Hi guys, I haven't posted for quite a while here but thought I'd give it another shot.

Regarding the situation at valleyfair (beating/stomping), as a bystander how would you have reacted?
Would that be a justifiable shooting?
How about with the "gun ban" that they have; would that make it a different situation? (assume you are carrying, regardless of their sign)

In a perfect world, it's a no-brainer, but as there were no weapons involved, and the fact guns are prohibited there, I'm just curious as to what some who probably know the wording/meaning of the law better than myself think.
In this situation obviously this guy had great bodily harm done, and easily could have died there at the scene, I would think this would be absolutely a good shoot.

I know there is a thread going on about the incident, but I didn't want to hijack it.

8-1 is sufficient disparity of force to bring GBH and deadly force into play.
Ignoring the 'no guns' sign is not a criminal matter.
Defense of another is legal.
Reluctant participant doesn't apply, because the father was protecting the daughter, who can't possibly consent to being molested by adults. I'm pretty sure that 'on the ground, unconscious, getting kicked in the face by 8 guys' qualifies him for reluctance, on your behalf.

Legally, with hindsight, I think you'd be set.

Would you know all of that, walking across the parking lot?
Would the other 1000 'urban yutes' causing trouble in the vicinity jump you for getting involved?
Would you have a clear shot, both to and beyond the thugs, without shooting an innocent guy walking his daughter to the car?
Would you be absolutely sure, the guy on the ground didn't start it, eliminating his reluctance?

If you saw the whole thing, from start to finish, knowing the situation and relationships, and you had a clear, safe shot, you would probably be ok, legally.

Is your family with you? That question changes all of the dynamics, in my mind.

Carry a cell phone and don't be afraid to use it.

[hammAR]

PW, you covered it pretty well.

The only thing that I could add would be, IF you decided to intervene and yelled at them to stop, they turn and come at you aggressively yelling and threatening, then I believe that the precedent of GBH would be established...............

would be a good shoot up to the point of reload...

[Victoria]

Would the other 1000 'urban yutes' causing trouble in the vicinity jump you for getting involved?

This is the one that tips it for me. There was already clearly some mob mentality going on there, what with the number of people involved in the incident and further attacks throughout the night (as mentioned in one article or another). If I was in an empty street and there were 7-8 guys beating up one guy, then maybe ... but when there were tons of other questionable types standing around likely to jump in (and I'd really be surprised if not a single one had an illegally carried gun on them) the likelihood of it turning from intervention into total chaos and rioting are too high. Cellphone would have been my choice in this situation.

[Spartan117]

I tend to agree with the consensus that the situation would be too unstable to be able to intervene with force, but I'd also regret it after the fact. I'm glad I wasn't there.

[justaguy]

I have seen two things split a crowd quick. A gun and a dog. If you start putting holes into people the mob will not be running at you they will be going away. Guns shots will scatter them like cockroaches when you turn on the lights

[Victoria]

I have seen two things split a crowd quick. A gun and a dog. If you start putting holes into people the mob will not be running at you they will be going away. Guns shots will scatter them like cockroaches when you turn on the lights

My personal experience with this kind of particular crowd/situation (granted, not in Minnesota) is that innocent bystanders would scatter like cockroaches when the light comes on, but the gang-type people only scatter so far before either shooting back or regrouping and following you to attack later. Personally, I don't like those odds in that situation.

[Aceq2jot]

First the way i look at it, if the weapon is concealed and they have it posted no one is the wiser, and after all it is a gross misdemeanor if you get caught there unless it is one of those taboo places.

When they got him on the ground the and started laying the Boot in, that has far gone past reasonable use of force, and has become deadly force and you are permitted to defend another person.

Now the big question is could you live with yourself if you did nothing to stop them ?? Some people are comfy with calling 911 etc and are happy at that point.
Other people who i know on this board would not comfortable and have the necessary skills to step in and take action and be comfortable knowing either way it turned out they helped.

Its like giving CPR as the law says even if you are certified you do not have to perform CPR on a person and for them making a call is enough. Another person may feel they have to perform CPR.

It all boils down to a matter of choice and how comfortable you are doing something.

[CueBall]

personally i couldnt live with the fact of doing nothing when someones sustaining a severe beating. mob mentality would be an issue and possibly cause you to be overwhelmed but i think 230 gr of gold dots finest would persuade more than a few to seek medical attention instead of continuing the attack. couple that with the fact that punks like that tend to flee when the tables are tunred i think you would have a good chance comming through unscathed.

[Tutmos]

I wonder if the best course would have been to step in close and take a shot in the air, with a .45 that gives quite a shell shock to everyone around. Ringing ears for weeks for the scum near the barrel. Demand they get on the ground at gunpoint and yell for security to get in there and sit on them till the police arrive?

[Wadero]

I wonder if the best course would have been to step in close and take a shot in the air, with a .45 that gives quite a shell shock to everyone around. Ringing ears for weeks for the scum near the barrel. Demand they get on the ground at gunpoint and yell for security to get in there and sit on them till the police arrive?

While no course of action is completely desirable, that seems like a really bad idea.

[Tutmos]

I wonder if the best course would have been to step in close and take a shot in the air, with a .45 that gives quite a shell shock to everyone around. Ringing ears for weeks for the scum near the barrel. Demand they get on the ground at gunpoint and yell for security to get in there and sit on them till the police arrive?

While no course of action is completely desirable, that seems like a really bad idea.

Can you elaborate a bit please? : )

[Fast351]

What goes up must come down.

You'll also be deaf and not hear people coming behind you.

You just reduced your available rounds by one.

Need any more reasons?

[justaguy]

I have seen two things split a crowd quick. A gun and a dog. If you start putting holes into people the mob will not be running at you they will be going away. Guns shots will scatter them like cockroaches when you turn on the lights

My personal experience with this kind of particular crowd/situation (granted, not in Minnesota) is that innocent bystanders would scatter like cockroaches when the light comes on, but the gang-type people only scatter so far before either shooting back or regrouping and following you to attack later. Personally, I don't like those odds in that situation.

This is Valley Fair not Mogadishu. The cops are on the way and we are not talking about a riot. Vermin are not used to armed resistance and dont have rally points and contact drills and they value their life. I would not simply call the cops and walk to my car and go home while a 12 girl watches here dad die. The reason they fuc ked with other people is because no one did anything but call the cops. Shooting may not be the answer but just calling and watching as a kid looses her father is just as stupid as these guys beating him.

[hammAR]

..................