Short rant re: Bill's

[walstien]

See, that's just the thing. He's not just another small business owner.

His success or failure directly impacts me.

John has given me access to a well appointed shooting facility, a wonderful set of gunsmiths, and great staff. It's a place where I would feel comfortable taking my wife as well as my children.

It's not like a hardware store where if I get pissed off I can just go to Lowe's.

John has given me access to a place in which I can enjoy my hobby, be with friends, and exercise my second amendment rights.

Until someone else comes along and lays their ass on the line to provide that for me, I'll choose to just be grateful for what has been given to me.

[farmerj]

He found a niche market he cared to develop a business in. Any value from that is purely personal. You place a higher value on it than others. Yeah you.

I have used his services in the past. I don't care for indoor ranges and I have other gun stores closer to me with comparable prices.

Doesn't make either of us right or wrong. Just makes it personal decisions.

I will give him kudos though for the comment via Joe.

[jshuberg]

No, you're wrong there. They are a very visible presence in the shooting community in the greater metro. When a firearms related issue comes up in the news, the local media will often go to John for comment or statement. Like it or not, Bill's plays a large and important role in our community. Even for those who never go there. They're not unique in that regard, but significantly more visible to the general public. And that's a good thing for us, compared with some of the other places around town that look more like a disorganized garage sale than a retail business.

We need every single firearms related business in town to be as successful as possible. We need more gun stores, we need more ranges. When BPR was shutdown due to the fire, I donated some money to help them rebuild. Personally, I don't like BPR very much. Everytime I've been there in the last several years (which admittedly is only a handful), there has always been an issue of some kind that inconvenienced me. I don't go bitching about it everytime the topic of BPR comes up though. It simply wasn't that big of a deal compared with the other important things I have to deal with in my life. Nor do I need to "boycott" them and then jump on my online soapbox and tell everyone about it. I simply prefer to go to a different place, but still I wish them continued success, and would hate to see anything happen to threaten their business. If we lost them for some reason, it would be a tragedy, even for those like myself who rarely go there. The same is true of Bill's.

I guess I just don't understand the need to bash a place, especially when in the case of this thread it was admittedly the authors honest misunderstanding. It doesn't result in anything positive, the world isn't improved, and our community doesn't benefit. The need to constantly bitch about this business, or that instructor, or those manufacturers, etc. is nothing but negativism that undermines the good work that other people are trying to do within our community. If you think something is wrong somewhere, be proactive and let them know about it, recommend a solution, offer something positive. Or if that's not your style then simply find a different venue, and be happy there. The need to continuously bash a place that provides an important and necessary service to the community simply isn't at all helpful. A rising tide lifts all boats, and the more that we can do to support all of the business's within our community, the better it is for all of us.

[farmerj]

Would it have really hurt to put a sign on the door that day?


A lesson for all was learned. It'll be interesting to see what happens next year

[walstien]

Well said, Schuberg.

[farmerj]

As I said earlier, it only makes him a good small business owner. As any business owner would do in their market or trade. They should speak out and take pride in their store, community and trade.

Some folks just don't like being put in the public eye and interviewed for the media. I honestly don't blame them. Others like John, don't seem to mind and therefor get a reputation as being the go to people on a topic.

Did the op have a beef? Possible. Lessons were learned is what I see from Joe's comment from john. I don't think it'll happen again.

I am neither for or against Bill's or any other gun shop in the metro. I just don't make it a point of shopping in the metro period.

[XDM45]

Just a reminder why you shouldn't shoot at Bill's - viewtopic.php?f=52&t=38845&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=bill+s+full+auto

Look at page 1, post 1 and the photos say it all.

Of course if that's not enough, go look at the air filters and notice the state they are in. Not the cleanest air there, in my opinion. Then there's the heat, the rent-a-boomstick crowd, et al.

If the air filters are dirty, that likely means means they are doing what they're designed to do: capture airborne particulates.
No assumptions can be made about a quick glance at a filter…
I'm not a big fan of any indoor range setting. But fair is fair.

Well, everytime I went there they filters always showed they needed changing. Maybe bad timing on my part or maybe they didn't change them often enough, who knows. I can only go by what I saw.

[XDM45]

Just a reminder why you shouldn't shoot at Bill's - viewtopic.php?f=52&t=38845&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=bill+s+full+auto

Look at page 1, post 1 and the photos say it all.

Of course if that's not enough, go look at the air filters and notice the state they are in. Not the cleanest air there, in my opinion. Then there's the heat, the rent-a-boomstick crowd, et al.

Or... at the end of the thread:

John has disciplined the employees involved and he said he changed the policy on how fully auto weapons are handled. I let him know right off the bat I was posting this on the forum and he has come through with a valid response to my complaint. No more arguing needed.

The issue may have been resolved, however the point is that it shouldn't have ever happened in the first place. There's a zero-tolerance for stupidity with firearms, at least in my book.

[XDM45]

For some people, the opportunity to bitch about a problem is more important than seeking resolution or having the problem solved. Funny thing is, those are often the same people that tend to have a lot of problems in their life. Go figure....

1) I did talk to staff at Bill's about the issue(s) of concern to me.

2) I still see the rent-a-boomstick crowd and some a-hattery going on there, thus no shooty shooty for me any more at Bill's.

3) See the above 2 and understand why my resolution is not to shoot there anymore.

4) Only REAL problem I have in my life is terminal Cancer. What's your worse one? Other than being 8 months into a 12 month terminal diagnosis, I'm good. How about you?

[photogpat]

I'm by no means an apologist for Bill's....but I had an issue with something I bought at the Shooter's Show -- and Joe offered to make it right by me next time I come in.

Just sayin'

[jshuberg]

I've read about your cancer, and yeah, when it comes to getting a really ******* deal and having something *real* to complain about, you have my sympathies and have every right to be as upset as you want to be. Absolutely no arguments from me.

How about me?

Well, I don't have cancer, thank god, but I'm not without my own issues to deal with. It turns out that all that crap in the air we had to breath during Desert Storm wasn't very good for us, and resulted in something called Bled disease. Basically, I have hundreds of blisters on both lungs (called blebs) and several years ago a large one about 2.5cm across popped, causing a hole in my lung that collapsed it down to the size of a tennis ball. I was in the hospital for two weeks with a chest tube, and underwent a bleb resection and a mechanical pleurodesis surgeries. I was told that a mechanical pleurodesis is the most painful procedure a person can go through, as they basically rough up the outside of your lung and the inside of your chest wall with the medical equivalent of sandpaper, and then stitch them together so that scar tissue and adhesions will form to keep the lung from collapsing if another bleb goes on on me. I no longer have a pleural cavity on the right side of my chest. As you might expect, it still bothers me quite a bit many years later. I have a prescription for muscle relaxers and vicodin to deal with it, but I still miss a few days of work each month because of the pain. Especially when it's cold outside like it was all winter. While I was in the hospital they had me on a drug called fentanyl, which is a synthetic opiate that's around 50 times the potency of morphene, introduced through a spinal catheter. So yeah, I do have some issues to deal with, but overall all It's not too bad compared with the problems that some other people have to suffer.

Getting back to Bill's, if you don't like the crowd, or the procedures there or whatever then simply shoot somewhere else. The need to constantly bash a place at every opportunity just doesn't help anything...

[XDM45]

I've read about your cancer, and yeah, when it comes to getting a really ******* deal and having something *real* to complain about, you have my sympathies and have every right to be as upset as you want to be. Absolutely no arguments from me.

How about me?

Well, I don't have cancer, thank god, but I'm not without my own issues to deal with. It turns out that all that crap in the air we had to breath during Desert Storm wasn't very good for us, and resulted in something called Bled disease. Basically, I have hundreds of blisters on both lungs (called blebs) and several years ago a large one about 2.5cm across popped, causing a hole in my lung that collapsed it down to the size of a tennis ball. I was in the hospital for two weeks with a chest tube, and underwent a bleb resection and a mechanical pleurodesis surgeries. I was told that a mechanical pleurodesis is the most painful procedure a person can go through, as they basically rough up the outside of your lung and the inside of your chest wall with the medical equivalent of sandpaper, and then stitch them together so that scar tissue and adhesions will form to keep the lung from collapsing if another bleb goes on on me. I no longer have a pleural cavity on the right side of my chest. As you might expect, it still bothers me quite a bit many years later. I have a prescription for muscle relaxers and vicodin to deal with it, but I still miss a few days of work each month because of the pain. Especially when it's cold outside like it was all winter. While I was in the hospital they had me on a drug called fentanyl, which is a synthetic opiate that's around 50 times the potency of morphene, introduced through a spinal catheter. So yeah, I do have some issues to deal with, but overall all It's not too bad compared with the problems that some other people have to suffer.

Getting back to Bill's, if you don't like the crowd, or the procedures there or whatever then simply shoot somewhere else. The need to constantly bash a place at every opportunity just doesn't help anything...

Yeah, you have no piece of cake either. True that. Thank you for your service too by the way.

As for Bill's in Robinsdale (Never been to Circle Pines location), I go elsewhere, problem solved for me.... however, I think people need to be aware of the things that go on there, (like new shooters, people who haven't been there before, etc), which it appears to me Bill's Robinsdale has more of an issue than other ranges like BPR does. I have, in all fairness, seen some a-hattery at BPR, BUT much less of it because they don't rent guns, BPR attracts a different crowd, etc. I will say, that like Roger at BPR, John the owner of Bill's, also seems to be a top-notch guy, small business owner and really does care.... It's not so much Bill's itself I have a problem with so much as it is the crowd that place attracts. It's not the staffers sweeping muzzles, firing hand cannons and extremely loud rifles indoors, being neglectful of safety, etc, it's the customers that scare the eff outta me.

I do realize the full auto issue is old, resolved, etc, however, It's Bill's, one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, gun shop in the metro that isn't a chain store.... it's not "Bubba Jim's Hey Ya'All Watch THIS!! Gun Store in B.F.E.....", so I expected more out of them. The full autos should have NEVER been behind the firing line. Call me unforgiving and I'll admit that I am. Call me a nazi fundamentalist when it comes to gun safety and I'll admit that I am. I have a zero-tolerance personal policy for stupidity for firearms. If I go shooting with someone and they do something negligent, we don't go again. I don't give second chances to shoot me or anything else negligent. People are entitled to their own opinions and to disagree with me, and I'm find with that. I'm also fine with my unapologetic stance on this as well. So there it is.

To my knowledge, that incident at Bill's is the most irresponsible thing I have ever seen at a range, even over a muzzle sweep.

I think people need to be made aware of what transpired at Bill's. To me, while I don't like muzzle sweeps, it has happened at other places too, including BPR. I have busted people loading pistols behind the firing line and spoke to them about it, etc. However, I've never had the dirty air issues at BPR like I did at Bill's; and I've never seen full autos behind the firing line at BPR like I did at Bill's. Those two are huge issues that should never be forgotten. I will say that when I checked my Blood Lead Level, it was .21 and once I started shooting outdoors and taking some extra precautions, I managed to get it down to .7, which is great. So indoors isn't my favorite place to shoot at, including BPR. Outdoor private clubs that are members only and/or private land is best in my opinion.

I realize many people here are old hats and don't need to be warned about Bill's, however, once in a blue moon, there does seem to be a new user or two on here and I think they need to be made aware.

I guess people will either agree with me or not; and either is fine with me; but as a community, we need to look out for each other, not sweep things under the rug. Yeah, the recent mess up about the sign and the range being closed isn't cool, but it's nowhere near the issue of bad air quality and/or full autos behind the firing line and/or the rent-a-boom-stick crowd that does some pretty whacked things.

[Spartan]

it's time for this thread to end..... its very unproductive and it seems there will not be an cessation to this bitch secession .....
as the chairman of a gunclub/range .... I know how dealing with the general "gun" John Q. Public can be. Some are ok, some are not, some just need to bitch about everything .. some wouldn't pick up after themselves and some become FIREARM RAGING ASS***E PROXIMITY SYNDROME ...... OR FRAPS for all you acronym lovers .....

We need to stop this rant and concentrate on the 2nd biggest problem we have in the firearms world .... FRAPS ..... please donate appropriately .....

The Newly forming American Fraps foundation of America is dedicating to treating this dreadful affliction ..... only we if we can raise the awareness and funding to combat this will be all be safe...... from :

rapid and careless mussel control
skylined shooting
shooter's flinch
rapid fire
over reliance on manual safeties
mussel climb
limp wristing
firing behind the line
shooting with eyes closed
general unsafe firarms handling
and horrendous marksmanship

Please donate generously.....

[jshuberg]

I realize that a machine gun on the back bench was a big deal to you, as well as for a few other people. My understanding (from a previous post on the forum) was that the reason they didn't case machine guns was that they didn't want one to accidentally walk away while the instructor was focused on the student. Without a case, it would be obvious that someone was trying to walk off with it, as every customer firearm is required to be cased. Yeah, I agree that sounds like a pretty lame reason, but that's what I heard.

The reason I never had an issue with it myself is that the "all firearms must be cased except on the firing line" rule is a range rule, not one of the 4 rules of firearm safety. If a person observes the 4 rules of firearm safety, then he's being perfectly safe with his firearm, case or no case. The reason for the range rule is that neither the range employees, nor any of the shooters should trust that the other people on the range will in fact follow the 4 rules of firearm safety. By requiring people to keep their firearms cased, you prevent people the possibility of becoming unsafe behind the firing line. This minimizes the possibility of a negligent discharge, and helps to make the other shooters at the range feel safe.

However, if I go shooting on private land with my buddies, I have absolutely no problem with my buddy carrying or setting an uncased rifle down behind me. I know that he's safe, and that he'll observe proper firearm safety at all times. Unlike some guy at the range that I've never met before, I trust my buddy, and I don't need him to keep his rifle in a case to make me feel safe. The same is true of someone who is a firearm instructor, in uniform, on the job. I simply trust that as an instructor he knows how to safely handle a firearm. If he doesn't, that's a whole other level of badness I don't want to get into here. Basically though, if a person follows the 4 rules of firearm safety, and everyone with him knows and trusts that he will safely handle his firearm, keeping it cased at all times simply isn't necessary. Again, none of the 4 rules of firearm safety involve keeping a firearm cased, it's an additional layer on top of the safety rules to handle the situation where there are unknown people around that you can't trust to be safe.

Is it a valid concern that someone might not feel safe when an instructor carries an uncased firearm? Yes, absolutely because trust and feeling safe are absolutely essential when going to the range. But do understand that a great many people have never had a problem with this in the past, since most people are able to trust that the range officers and instructors working at the range will handle their firearms safely. And I very much disagree with your statement that having an uncased firearm behind the firing line is a worse thing than being swept with a muzzle. Sweeping someone with a muzzle *is* a violation of the rules of firearm safety. Having an uncased firearm behind the firing line is not in and of itself a violation of firearm safety, but it does allow the possibility that someone might violate one of the rules of firearm safety behind the firing line. There is a very definite distinction between the two.

I'm not apologizing for Bill's on this. The fact that even one person was made to feel unsafe because one of their instructors had an uncased firearm proves that it was a bad practice. I just want to make the distinction that violating a range rule, while a very bad thing to do, is not necessarily in and of itself an actual safety violation. And that an actual safety violation is *much* worse than violating a range rule when no actual violation of the 4 rules of safety occurred.

I think it's also necessary to reiterate that when someone let the management at Bill's know that the practice made them feel unsafe, rather than simply complain about it on the internet, they changed the practice. I would very much encourage anyone who feels they have a gripe with any business to let them know, and give them the opportunity to make it right.

Anyways, I doubt that this will change anyone's mind on the issue, which is fine. I just thought I'd spew my opinion on it since it does come up from time to time.

[Mn01r6]

Uncased guns on the back bench sweep everyone entering and leaving the range and should not be permitted. I do not trust an RO with my life and I expect him to lead by example with the rules that promote maximum safety.

I like bills and John M is a wonderful, responsive owner. I have never felt unsafe there and I can handle being in a lane next to an AR10 with a brake, but that picture of guns Uncased on the back bench was a breach of the safety rules. It was responded to and fixed and shouldn't be an issue except for the few that like to rag on Bills, but to claim it wasn't a serious safety issue is whitewashing it, in my humble opinion.