Short rant re: Bill's

[jshuberg]

I hate to break it to you, but a cased gun still exists inside the case, and it doesn't prevent the muzzle from pointing wherever it's pointing. If the muzzle is pointing in the direction of people walking in the door, then that's where it's pointing. Most cases aren't made of ballistic material, so if a cased weapon goes boom for some reason when sitting there all by itself, the case will make absolutely no difference. The fact you cant see it doesn't change that fact.

A cased firearm does one and only one thing to increase the level of safety on the range - it prevents someone from being able to contact the trigger, thus preventing a negligent discharge from being possible. That's it. The fact that people are fine with being swept with the muzzle of a cased firearm is because they know the firearm can't be fired while cased. A firearm sitting on a bench that is not being handled is just as safe whether it is cased or not. Although some people may feel unsafe simply by the fact that they can see it.

Last time I checked, there are a *lot* of uncased firearms hanging on the walls at Bill's. I've even seen an employee carrying an uncased firearm around after taking it off the wall. Funny thing, no panic ensued. No internet complaints. People simply know that the employees are going to be safe at handing a firearm. It shouldn't matter which floor that employee happens to be on. It's not whitewashing, it's pointing out the difference between an actual verses a perceived safety issue. Neither should be allowed to happen, but there is a difference between the two.

For the record, the 4 rules of firearm safety are:

1) Treat every firearm as if it's loaded
2) Don't point a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy
3) Don't touch the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire
4) Be aware of what's in front of and behind your target

If you follow these rules, you'll always be safe, and will never have a negligent discharge.

[Mn01r6]

A firearm sitting on a bench that is not being handled is just as safe whether it is cased or not.

I have to disagree with you there.

1) it had to be put on that back bench uncased, during wich time someone could have accidentally pulled the trigger
2) some idiot could walk up to it and grab it with very little warning since it is uncased.
3) it violates the rules of the range and does not model good behavior to others using the lanes.

[jshuberg]

I agree with you on #3, and in no way wish to diminish the real concerns that people have about safety. Personally, I like to go beyond the 4 rules of safety by practicing holster work with a blue gun, or use a training barrel when dry firing, etc. I would still be safe if I didn't do these things though - they are just additional layers that further minimize the possibility of something going wrong. I know this is serious thread drift, but I think it's an important topic to discuss.

Let me describe 2 scenarios, in the first one, you walk into Bill's, or any other gun store or show, and you see an uncased firearm sitting on the sales counter. There's a customer in front of the counter, and an employee behind the counter turned sideways talking on the phone doing a NICS check. Chances are that the muzzle is pointing in a direction that someone, maybe even you, could potentially walk in front of as it sits there.

In the second scenario we have the complaint about being on the range, looking back and seeing an uncased firearm on the bench behind the firing line, with a range instructor in uniform standing in front of it with a student. Chances are that the muzzle is pointing in a direction that someone, maybe even you, could potentially walk in front of as it sits there.

Would you or have you perceived any difference in the level of safety in these two scenarios? The first one happens almost every time a firearm is sold commercially. Typically if a person walks into a gun store and sees a firearm laying on the sales counter, they are comfortable trusting that the weapon was safety checked, and that the employee that is selling it is not being unsafe with it. It happens tens of thousands of times every day across the country. The second one happens much less often, but this is apparently where some people have a problem. While I applaud anyone who is a stickler for range rules and being as safe as possible, if you perceive any difference in safety between these two scenarios, I'd respectfully ask you to ask yourself why.

Is it because there is a greater chance of it being loaded, or fired, or mishandled some way on the range than on the sales floor? If so, you're being inconsistent in how you view firearm safety. If you are comfortable with a sales rep taking a weapon off the wall, safety checking it and walking it and setting it down on the counter why would you feel unsafe if the exact same guy did the exact same thing, only instead did it on the range? If you perceive that it's more dangerous in some way to do this on the range, then you are applying a context to weapon safety, meaning that you are not treating the weapon as if it is loaded equally across the board. Again, the reason for the casing rule on the range is to prevent unknown people who might be unsafe from ever being able to become unsafe it the first place.

Now, before anyone gets all worked up about uncased firearms on the sales floor, that isn't the point I'm trying to get across. My point is that a firearm is a firearm regardless of where it is located, and a person handling a firearm is the same person regardless of where he happens to be handling the firearm. If you trust him to be safe in one context, but not another, the difference is simply in your head, and may evidence the fact that you may be inconsistent in your application of firearm safety.

Again, a firearm business has a responsibility to eliminate all issues of safety for their customers, both real and perceived. Unless there's something that I'm unware of, Bill's has addressed the issue when it was brought to their attention.

[XDM45]

Uncased guns on the back bench sweep everyone entering and leaving the range and should not be permitted. I do not trust an RO with my life and I expect him to lead by example with the rules that promote maximum safety.

I like bills and John M is a wonderful, responsive owner. I have never felt unsafe there and I can handle being in a lane next to an AR10 with a brake, but that picture of guns Uncased on the back bench was a breach of the safety rules. It was responded to and fixed and shouldn't be an issue except for the few that like to rag on Bills, but to claim it wasn't a serious safety issue is whitewashing it, in my humble opinion.

100% agreed.

I've never ragged on Bill's per se... just the actions of the staffer who let the full autos be like that and the rent-a-boomstick crowd customers and the air quality.

[greenfarmer]

I'd much rather see that full auto, select fire, or whatever, sitting on the back bench, no mag, and action open. Than see it in a case. Atleast by seeing it on that back bench, with no mag, and action open, I know it's empty, and no matter what it can't go boom!

It's the gun in the case that scares me. Did "so and so" make sure it's not loaded. What if they didn't clear the chamber and it does go off by accident?

I only go to Bills a couple times a year. Just for some winter shooting. Otherwise i'll shoot here on the farm. But everytime I've been there, I've always had good luck, made new friends, and always been treated great by Bills staff.

You want to really be offended, take a permit to carry class! I took one by an instructor, and he was waving around a gun in the glassroom. it's getting waved around all over, sweeping students.. You name it! Talk about a bad practice! It wasn't something I found very good about his class.

[Erud]

It's the gun in the case that scares me. Did "so and so" make sure it's not loaded. What if they didn't clear the chamber and it does go off by accident?

Can you explain how this might happen?

[santo]

I too had a very negative experience at that Bill's location: rude, asinine behavior from a range officer who went so far as too use profanity in the presence of my wife. We left. I contacted the management who apologized and asked for details. After the initial exchange, we received passes to shoot again. The very RO that we dealt with previously was there and very courteous. We have encountered no problems since. The other staff members have always behaved as professional ladies and gentlemen.
I truly dislike reading stories like this. Not only gun owners, but all Americans should remember, respect, and re-adopt the values that define us as such.

Be well and God bless


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Slayer_MN1]

It sounds like maybe some of you should securely barricade yourselves in a heavily armored and padded rooms because lightning strikes, trees fall, bridges collapse, virus's spread and all in all the world is very unsafe. Yep... it'd be a good idea to just stay inside.

[Mn01r6]

I'd much rather see that full auto, select fire, or whatever, sitting on the back bench, no mag, and action open. Than see it in a case. Atleast by seeing it on that back bench, with no mag, and action open, I know it's empty, and no matter what it can't go boom!

It's the gun in the case that scares me. Did "so and so" make sure it's not loaded. What if they didn't clear the chamber and it does go off by accident?

I like action open with no mag too, but that's not the rules at any range I have been to - case and uncase at the line. Period.

You want to really be offended, take a permit to carry class! I took one by an instructor, and he was waving around a gun in the glassroom. it's getting waved around all over, sweeping students.. You name it! Talk about a bad practice! It wasn't something I found very good about his class.

That's funny because I took my PTC class from Bills in circle pines. I was swept multiple times by the instructor... with a blue gun.

[XDM45]

I'd much rather see that full auto, select fire, or whatever, sitting on the back bench, no mag, and action open. Than see it in a case. Atleast by seeing it on that back bench, with no mag, and action open, I know it's empty, and no matter what it can't go boom!

It's the gun in the case that scares me. Did "so and so" make sure it's not loaded. What if they didn't clear the chamber and it does go off by accident?

I like action open with no mag too, but that's not the rules at any range I have been to - case and uncase at the line. Period.

You want to really be offended, take a permit to carry class! I took one by an instructor, and he was waving around a gun in the glassroom. it's getting waved around all over, sweeping students.. You name it! Talk about a bad practice! It wasn't something I found very good about his class.

That's funny because I took my PTC class from Bills in circle pines. I was swept multiple times by the instructor... with a blue gun.

Sweeping with ANY gun isn't acceptable. I realize people "shot" at each other with toy guns as kids - but then kids don't know any better usually. Over -emphasizing safety to the point of OCD isn't a bad thing when it comes to guns.

[jshuberg]

I disagree. A majority of people when I put a blue gun in their hand and tell them to point it at me, hesitate. If you carry a firearm for defense, there may become a time when you need to point your weapon at another person. There are times when you *need* to be dangerous to save your life. It is in fact the purpose of a defensive weapon.

If you never train for a defensive encounter with a blue gun or equivalent, you never develop the procedural memory to do so during a life threatening encounter. In a life threatening encounter, rational thought goes bye-bye, and you revert to your training. If your training never involved pointing a (blue) gun at a human threat, there is a likelihood that you'll hesitate, which could cost you your life. You never rise to the occasion, you always fall back to your training.

Some people become OCD about safety, and train themself to never point a gun at another person. The safety rule is to never point a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy. Pointing a simulated gun at a simulated threat is not only *not* unsafe, it's necessary to ensure that if an actual threat occurs you will respond correctly to it.

One of the purposes of a blue gun is to engage in training that if performed with a real gun would be unsafe.

[xd ED]

I disagree. A majority of people when I put a blue gun in their hand and tell them to point it at me, hesitate. If you carry a firearm for defense, there may become a time when you need to point your weapon at another person. There are times when you *need* to be dangerous to save your life. It is in fact the purpose of a defensive weapon.

If you never train for a defensive encounter with a blue gun or equivalent, you never develop the procedural memory to do so during a life threatening encounter. In a life threatening encounter, rational thought goes bye-bye, and you revert to your training. If your training never involved pointing a (blue) gun at a human threat, there is a likelihood that you'll hesitate, which could cost you your life. You never rise to the occasion, you always fall back to your training.

Some people become OCD about safety, and train themself to never point a gun at another person. The safety rule is to never point a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy. Pointing a simulated gun at a simulated threat is not only *not* unsafe, it's necessary to ensure that if an actual threat occurs you will respond correctly to it.

One of the purposes of a blue gun is to engage in training that if performed with a real gun would be unsafe.

Excellent points.

A class I took involved among other exercises, shooting at center mass of a t-shirt formed as though it were being worn.

It might not seem so to some, but it's very different than any paper target I've engaged.

[jshuberg]

Shooting at photorealistic targets, tshirts, mannequins, etc. are an important aspect of defensive training. As is role playing defensive scenarios with a blue gun, training knife, etc. Video simulators are also excellent, but the best of this type of training I've found is a force-on-force class using simunitions. Here you are shooting real guns at real people, firing a paint round through an undersized barrel incapable of chambering a live round.

If all a person does is shoot at bullseye or silloette targets, he is in fact underprepared for a life threatening encounter.

Putting a gun in a mans hand doesn't make him competent anymore than putting a chisel in his hand makes him a sculptor. It all comes down to training. Unfortunately, most people become fixated on the hardware, and have absolutely no idea how to use it properly.

[farmerj]

don't plan on ever taking a class with me then. You'll be swept and you will sweep others with a blue gun.

My word. What the hell would you do on a paint ball field or if you were to wear MILES gear. You got major hang-ups and are rather myopic on some training points.

You train as you fight and you fight as you train. If you have hang ups while training, practice BAD habits while training and such, it WILL get you injured or at worst KILLED in real situations. There are more than enough reports I have read of officer involved shootings with magazines dropped with rounds still in them. Why? because some bureaucrat decided on playing with a range qual where you had a mag loaded with two rounds or 1 round change and continue the COF.

I saw the same stupid habits developed in the army too. People would dump mags instead of realizing how many rounds they actually used.

[shooter115]

Wow, so much wining I couldn't remain silent any longer. Maybe instead of bitching about petty issues, you should just be thankful you have a public indoor range you can shoot at without driving 3 hours. Even funnier is that most of the criers have several options for public indoor ranges within a few minutes. OMG....I was so inconvenienced, the filters were so dirty, I had a clearly unloaded and cold weapon pointed in my general direction while nobody was touching it, the staff didn't bow to their knees and worship me. STFU to all you pansies. I've never even been to Bill's, but if it's normally filled with a bunch crybabies like I've listened to in this thread, then that's probably a good thing