Gun bans successfully enforced in Britain?

[Lumpy]

One of the arguments against gun grabbing is that criminals will always be able to get illegal guns. But does the situation in Britain disprove that? By all evidence criminals there are trying to get handguns, and resorting to an absolutely pathetic medley of un-decommissioned guns, antiques, repurposed starter pistols and flare guns, and zip guns. If this is the best the UK black market can do, then is that proof that in the USA it's the huge stockpile of diverted legal guns that criminals "will always be able to get"?

[photogpat]

One of the arguments against gun grabbing is that criminals will always be able to get illegal guns. But does the situation in Britain disprove that? By all evidence criminals there are trying to get handguns, and resorting to an absolutely pathetic medley of un-decommissioned guns, antiques, repurposed starter pistols and flare guns, and zip guns. If this is the best the UK black market can do, then is that proof that in the USA it's the huge stockpile of diverted legal guns that criminals "will always be able to get"?

Great Britain is an island...easier to police imports than a country with a 2000 mile land border to the south and 4k+ to the north.

[bensdad]

I have the basic human right of self-protection. You can attribute that right to any source which tickles your fancy (God, nature, 2ndA, bad attitude, whatever). Nothing can change the fact that i have the right (responsibility, actually) to protect myself and my family from violence. Since I'm a tiny old man, that means a gun.

The rest of the whole wide world can successfully end violence, eliminate guns, re-write the Constitution, and surround my property with smelly hippy protesters. I will still have that right - cuz God, my wife, kids and I say so.

"We now return to our regularly scheduled socio-political herp-derp."

On a related note, you might wanna pick at the scabs on England's crime reporting. To say they play fast and loose with statistics is an insult to all things fast and most things loose.

[Ghost]

To say they play fast and loose with statistics is an insult to all things fast and most things loose.

Lies, damned lies and statistics come to mind.

[Seismic Sam]

I don't buy the original premise at all, and it sounds like Liberal propaganda. Apparently guns are coming in with immigrants through the chunnel in fairly large numbers, and while I can't find the reference, supposedly a couple of years ago the per capita murder rate for London was higher than New York City. There is also the charming glaring failure of the Brits to try and control violence this by talk of starting to ban KNIVES in Britian, including the big ones used to carve up Holiday turkeys and legs of lamb. After they get done with the knife ban, it will be on to bans on bricks, bats, and broken beer bottles.

[.45 Auto]

Who cares if they can get a gun or not! The real question is, how do their violent crime stats look? Just because they can't get a gun doesn't mean it's all sunshine and lollipops over there.

As for gun bans, why deprive me of my right to defend my family's lives and my life by limiting the means to do so? Essentially, the right of self defence is rooted in the right to life.

I'm glad I don't live over there, and will do everything I can to make sure we don't end up like them.

Mike - in Sherburne County

[photogpat]

I don't buy the original premise at all, and it sounds like Liberal propaganda. Apparently guns are coming in with immigrants through the chunnel in fairly large numbers, and while I can't find the reference, supposedly a couple of years ago the per capita murder rate for London was higher than New York City. There is also the charming glaring failure of the Brits to try and control violence this by talk of starting to ban KNIVES in Britian, including the big ones used to carve up Holiday turkeys and legs of lamb. After they get done with the knife ban, it will be on to bans on bricks, bats, and broken beer bottles.

During the London riots the #1 sale on Amazon for GB was baseball bats...

[bensdad]

and broken beer bottles.

Not sure if you folks remember this, but there actually was talk of getting rid of glass "pints" over there.

For a while after the ban (98?) England was only counting convictions for both gun violence totals and violent crime totals. In other words, if 51/100,000 people were murdered with a firearm, but only seven of them were convicted, England claimed a firearm murder rate of 7/100,000.

[Lumpy]

I didn't say banning guns is right; I said that in Britain at least by some reports criminals are resorting to last ditch "better than nothing" substitutes for proper guns. The drug equivalent would be junkies trying to get high on nutmeg and cough syrup. I'm looking for grounds to refute the assertion by an anti on another board that this is proof that the supply of guns can be dried up. While the UK is measurably more violent than the US, the claim is that their homicide rate is lower- supposedly, proof that eliminating the most lethal weapons makes a difference. I'd like to see an analysis that disproves that theory.

One of many reports about "improvised" guns in Britain: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 54533.html

[photogpat]

I didn't say banning guns is right; I said that in Britain at least by some reports criminals are resorting to last ditch "better than nothing" substitutes for proper guns. The drug equivalent would be junkies trying to get high on nutmeg and cough syrup. I'm looking for grounds to refute the assertion by an anti on another board that this is proof that the supply of guns can be dried up. While the UK is measurably more violent than the US, the claim is that their homicide rate is lower- supposedly, proof that eliminating the most lethal weapons makes a difference. I'd like to see an analysis that disproves that theory.

One of many reports about "improvised" guns in Britain: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 54533.html

Gun supply can absolutely be dried up with any/all of the below...

a) Given a small enough population
b) Given a totalitarian state

If you've got an island - you can build a "metaphorical" wall around it pretty easily to prevent certain things coming in. if you have a police state, you can go door-to-door searching, strip search everyone coming in over the borders, and search all incoming cargo. Fortunately, the US is large, diverse, spread-out, and democratic.

All you need to do is point out that drugs are illegal....and that doesn't seem to stop them from coming into the country. We need to dry up the demand for illegal activity with firearms instead of trying to ban them from legal hands.

[ericinmn1970]

Who cares if they can get a gun or not! The real question is, how do their violent crime stats look?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... violent-c/

[Hmac]

On a related note, you might wanna pick at the scabs on England's crime reporting. To say they play fast and loose with statistics is an insult to all things fast and most things loose.

This is absolutely true. Britain's crime statistics reporting is a well-known joke throughout Europe.

[samginko]

Heffey is back with more troll. Little look up on Google and you will find that there is no shortage of gun violence in Briton.

[Uffdaphil]

If Britain is anything like the US, huge numbers of crimes are not reported simply because the populace has zero faith any effort will be made to apprehend the scumbags.Home invaders, muggers, brash burglars etc. in Britain know the victim has no equalizer, hence are confident without guns. How is a lower gun crime rate a good thing if overall crime is more often successful? How are the unreported thousands of crimes not stymied simply by showing a gun factored into the "success" of gun ban countries?

[2in2out]

All you need to do is point out that drugs are illegal....and that doesn't seem to stop them from coming into the country. We need to dry up the demand for illegal activity with firearms instead of trying to ban them from legal hands.

Lumpy, I can't think of a better counter than that. In this country, we could ban every single last one of them, and the evil-doers will still get them. Unlike drugs, those that don't participate in illegal activities would be the victims in that case. I can't imagine a greater tragedy than that.